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Sam ¡@©ó¡@2003/01/15 08:32
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¤j®a¦n¡A§Ú¬OSam¡IÃö©ó¬üĬ§N¾Ô®É´Á¡A®ü®l¨â©¤¤§¶¡ªºªÅ¾Ô¦bªÅ¾Ô¥v¤W¬O¦û¦³¤@©wªº¦a¦ì¡C­º¥ý¡A³o¬O­º¦¸¥X²{ªÅ¹ïªÅ­¸¼uªº¾Ô¨Ò¡A¦ý¬O¥Ñ©ó¯Ê¥F«Å¶Ç¡A³y¦¨°ê»Ú¥v®Æ¤W­±¨Ã¤£ª`­«¦¹¦¸ªÅ¾Ô¡C¥Ñ©ó§N¾Ô®É´Á¥x®ü¾Ô§Ðªº³W¼Ò¤Ó¤p¤F¡A¦]¦Ó¥Ø«e¤½¶}ªº¬ÛÃö¬ã¨s¸ê®Æ¨Ã¤£¦h¡A¤]¤£¬O«Ü¨ü­«µø¡A¦Ü¤Ö¤ñ°_¬üĬ»P¤¤ªF¦a°Ïªº¾Ô¥v¦Ó¨¥¡A¬Û®t¤Ó»·¤F¡A¦Ó¥B¨â©¤¾Ô¥v¬Fªv¦¨¤À©l²×¶W¹L¾ú¥v»ù­È¡Aª½¨ì¤F¤µ¤Ñ¡A¤~¦³¨â©¤¦U¦ì»{¯uªº±M®a­Ì¤@¤@¶}©l¬ã¨s¡C¤£¹L¡A§N¾Ô®É´Á¡A¨ó¨¾¥xÆWªº¬ü°ê¾n¥xªÅ­x³æ¦ì¦ü¥G§ó¬°§Nªù¡C¤£¦ý´X¥G¨S¦³°Ñ»P¾Ôª§¡A³»¦h¥u¬O°t¦Xºt²ß¦Ó¤w¡A¦Ó¥B¬Ý¹Lªº·Ó¤ùÁÙ¥¼¥²¦³°ê­xªº­¸¾÷¦h¡C¥H¤U¬O¤@­Ó¬ü°ê¤Hªººô¯¸¡A¥L¤½¶}¤F¤@¨Ç·í®É¬ü°êªÅ­x²Ä¤G¤Q¤­¤¤¶¤¡]25th FIS¡^¤H­ûBud Norris ¦b¥xÆW¹Å¸qªÅ­x°ò¦a©Ò©çÄ᪺¤@¨Ç·Ó¤ù¡A°Ñ¦Ò»ù­È«D±`Â×´I¡A¤£¦ý¬O¬ã¨sªÅ­x¥vªº¥v®Æ¡A¦b¥xÆW¥vªº¦a¦ì¤]¤£®e©¿µø°Ú¡C

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src=http://f-86.tripod.com/F-86D256atChia-YiABTaiwan1958.jpg>


NO:50_1
VOR ¡@©ó¡@2003/01/15 10:46
Re:¬ü°êªÅ­x¾n¥xÆW®É´Áªº¾ú¥v·Ó¤ù

¦¹¬°¬ü°ê­¸¦æ­û½Í©õ¤é¨ó¨¾¥xÆWªº¸gÅç¡A¤º¦³¥xÆW¨Ï¥ÎÅT§À³D
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­ì¸ü©ó VMF-323 ºô¯¸
http://home.inreach.com/tc/

To add a little additional luster to the the VMF 323 history in the 1956-58 timeframe, some of you
may remember that 5 NCOs from our squadron--selected for their knowledge and expertise as to
various aspects of the Sidewinder-- and I went TAD with the Chinese Nationalist Air force in August
1958 at Hsinchu Air Base in Taiwan. Its a long and very interesting story in which our Sqadron was
not only instrumental but KEY in the FIRST use of air to air guided missils in actual airial combat
in history. Fired from 4 Chinat F86Es, the 8 VMF-323 installed sidewinders downed 6 Mig 17s -
with 6 more downed with guns when the Migs had to come down to lower altitude to get out of the con
layer where they were sitting ducks. If you ever had any doubts, the Sidewinder we had at the time
was one helluve a deadly weapon!!

We were sent by CINCPAC under top secret orders, and even col. Cummings did not know the purpose of
the mission at the time. The missions purpose we learned AFTER we got to Taipei and I was ushered
into see the commanding General of the US Air Force Advisory group to the Chinese Nationalist Air
Force. It was to install and test the Sidewinder on Chinat F86Es to combat the new Mig 17 that the
Red Chinese had just gotten from The Soviets, and to develope the necessary tactics to use it
effectively against a vastly superior aircraft that had a much higher service ceiling,airspeed and
climb rate.

Can you imagine my surprise when the Air force General tells me that they have some how purloined
40 of the Navys highly secret Sidewinders and 40 Racks and Rails. We were the only squadron
stationed in the far east with this weapon other than carrier based aircraft, and we still had all
of ours. Can you imagine my even greater surprise when he asked ME if they could be installed and
fired from the F86 platform. Why they had sent a first tour 1st Louie in charge of such a mission
is also beyond me, but it was a hellue an experience. To this day I cant imagine how they could
actually obtain one of the most sensitive and advanced weapons in our arsenal for use by the
Chinats without even knowing whether the damn things could even be adapted to the Air force F86.
Even China Lake had no idea what was going on with their Baby, until much later in the game.

After giving him the: If it can be done my men can do it bit, I quickly learned how utterly
dependant we as pilots and officers were on our highly competent and very skilled VMF-323
maintenace NCOs. My statement to the General, said with more bravado than common sense , proved to
be right on, as those guys dug in, and in one week had milled and fitted the racks to the F86
wing and converted the HAVAR rocket system wiring with toggle switches to become a jury rigged
Sidewinder tracking and firing system. All of this was done with little more than a few technical
manuals we had brought in our sea bags and an F86 wiring schematic.

After our people worked out the installation on the first F86 in one week working around the clock,
I checked out and test fired the first Sidewinder from the first F86 installation. Whereas the FJ4
carried 4 Sidewinders, we determined that the F86 could only carry two without seriously affecting
its performance. I fired a 5 HAVAR fired off the rail under the left wing, just as with the
practice firings we had done from the FJ4, and tracked it with the Sidewinder under the right wing
and pickled, which made the desired kill just as our men confidently predicted. Even the 7th Fleet
had no idea what was going on, reporting that unidentified Chinat aircraft had just fired an air
to air guided missile over the straits. Two weeks later we had 20 F86 aircraft mounted with 2
Sidewinders each, installed under our supervision.

An Air Force captain and I worked out Sidewinder intercept tactics flying Chinat F86s against Air
force F100s (considered roughly comparable to the Mig 17) flying at Angels 40+. We had to dive
and cut the pie and then convert our airspeed back to altitude, firing the Sidewinder at the top
of our climb, puting us within the Sidewinders high altitude range of the higher flying aircraft
otherwise beyond reach. I logged around 30 hours in the F86E, which performed well up to about
Angels 30, falling off rapidly above that altitude and almost useless above Angels 35, far
different from our FJ4.

About a month later the Chinats launched the 4 Sidewinder equipped 86s that were sent out from
strip alert, making the 6 Sidewinder Mig Kills against the surprised sitting duck Migs using the
tactics we had developed, followed up with 6 more by guns after the Migs were forced to come down
to stop marking. The surprised Red Chinese pilots thought they were well above the perfomance
ceiling of the F86 and the far better Chinat pilots - as they clearly were without the big
Equalizer - until they started seeing their wingmen blowing up. In retrospect, this was a very
significant event in the history of arial warfare, as I believe it truly was the first use of air
to air guided missiles in actual combat, the Chinat success for which can be equally claimed by
VMF-323

The Migs would not further engage after that disaterous encounter losing 12 of thir precious Mig
17 aircraft, not knowing which Chinat 86s were Sidewinder equipped, and with their newer Mig 17
altitude and perfomance advantage nullified by the Sidewinder. We know now that this short and
extremely significant engagement actually ended the raging air battle between the Chinats and Reds
for control of the air over the straits, essential to the Reds invasion plans in 1958 during the
Quemoy Matsu Crisis. It was the last actual air battle between the Chinats and Reds. At the time
this was not realized, resulting in a continuing US build up in the area including VMF 323 having
to unpack for its early deployment home from Atsugi with our tour temporarily extended and sent
down with the rest of MAG-15 to PingTung Taiwan. It was at the beginning of this flight to Taiwan
from Atsugi that we lost Jenkins who augered in during climb out from Atsugi for reasons never
determined. Some say he got disoriented. I am reminded, however, of the contaminated LOX tank that
earlier almost took out Deshasor.

As a sidelight, at lower altitude the Red Chinese pilots were no match for the far better trained
Chinat pilots in the F86E, with even the most junior having a minimum of 1000 hrs each in the 86.
Some of our own 323 pilots flying out of PingTung in the first few days (who shall mecifully remain
nameless) embarrasedly learned that the FJ4 would not turn with the Chinat F86E below Angels 25,
as it - like the Mig 17 - was designed for comparative performance at Angels 35 and above. They
learned for the first time what it feels like to have a foreign fighter at their 6 - but
fortunately friendly. They also relearned the value of the YO YO that some of us may have
forgotten in our earlier mock combat against higher performance aircraft such as the Navy Crusaders
and Sting Rays. In future mock dogfights against the Chinats the Yo Yo lesson was well applied
to at least obtain a draw against these top notch Chinat pilots, who had a kill ratio of better
than 30 to 1 against the Reds.

I joined a 40 Year Reunion of the infamous September 1958 Sidewinder air battle at Hsinchu Air Base
in Taiwan in September 1998. The principle toast was to 40 years of Tawanese prosperity owing in
large part to the extremely successful Sidewinder Mission made possible by the contribution of VMF
323 coupled with the skill of these Chinat pilots. There were a substantial number of other toasts ,
but that is another story. Two of the pilots of that memorable Sidewinder flight were there to
celebrate as retired Air Force Generals.Hsinchu now has the French Mirage, having been denied the
F16 - a sad final commentary contrasted with our 1958 total support.

Note: Thanks to former Death Rattler pilot Ray 𣫮obby� Robbins for the above additional history,
he lived it!


NO:50_2
³·­· ¡@©ó¡@2003/01/15 15:18
Re:¬ü°êªÅ­x¾n¥xÆW®É´Áªº¾ú¥v·Ó¤ù

¥xÆW¹ê¦b»Ý­n¦³¤H¦n¦n°µ­Ó­^¤åªº¥x®ü¾Ô¥vªººô¯¸¡A´N¦p±iºûÙyªºMilitary Avation of ROC µM¥i¯àê©óª©Åv°ÝÃD¡A«Ü¦h¾ú¥v¤å³¹¤Î·Ó¤ù¨S¦³¤HÄ@·N¥hIJ¤Î¥H®i¥Ü¨ì°ê»Ú¡A«e°}¤l¬Ý¨ì¤@­Ó­^¤åºô¯¸¡A³]¥ßªº³Ã¥ë³º´©¥Î¤¤°ê¤j³°¤û¥Ö¸ê®Æ¡A²Î­p°ê­x¥x®üªÅ¾Ô·l¥¢¤Q¾l¬[F-86¤£»¡¡A³ºµM¤]¦³F-86D³QÀ»¸¨¡A¹ê¦b¹DÅ¥Ò\»¡±o¥O¤H¶á»ó

NO:50_3
Sam ¡@©ó¡@2003/01/17 06:41
Re:¬ü°êªÅ­x¾n¥xÆW®É´Áªº¾ú¥v·Ó¤ù

§A­Ì¤j®a¯à§_´£¨Ñ°ê­xF-86Dªº·Ó¤ù¶Ü¡H¦]¬°¨º¦ì¦Ñ¥~¯¸ªø·Q­n¤@¨Ç°Ñ¦Ò¬Ý¬Ý¡I

NO:50_4
Sam ¡@©ó¡@2003/01/17 06:47
Re:¬ü°êªÅ­x¾n¥xÆW®É´Áªº¾ú¥v·Ó¤ù

§Ú­Ì¤j®a°®¯Ü¤@°_¦X§@§@¤@­Óºô¯¸¦n¤F¡A¥sFormosa Air Battle¡I

NO:50_5
®ÇÆ[ªÌ2 ¡@©ó¡@2003/01/17 08:06
Re:¬ü°êªÅ­x¾n¥xÆW®É´Áªº¾ú¥v·Ó¤ù

>>§A­Ì¤j®a¯à§_´£¨Ñ°ê­xF-86Dªº·Ó¤ù¶Ü¡H¦]¬°¨º¦ì¦Ñ¥~¯¸ªø·Q­n¤@¨Ç°Ñ¦Ò¬Ý¬Ý¡I

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¨º²Ä¤@­Ó¥þ¤Ñ­Ô¾Ô¾÷©O ¬O¶Â¹è°ü¶Ü


NO:50_6
¤pº­§À ¡@©ó¡@2003/01/17 09:20
Re:¬ü°êªÅ­x¾n¥xÆW®É´Áªº¾ú¥v·Ó¤ù

>§Ú­Ì¤j®a°®¯Ü¤@°_¦X§@§@¤@­Óºô¯¸¦n¤F¡A¥sFormosa Air Battle¡I

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NO:50_7
³·­· ¡@©ó¡@2003/01/17 10:05
Re:¬ü°êªÅ­x¾n¥xÆW®É´Áªº¾ú¥v·Ó¤ù

°ê­x11¤j¶¤44¤¤¶¤±q1960¦~¨ì1966¦~¶¡¨Ï¥Î¹LF-86 Sabre Dog¡A¥H«e¦b¡u¤¤°êªºªÅ­x¡v¤ë¥Z¬Ý¹L·Ó¤ù¡A¦Ó¥BÁÙ¦³±i¬O©MF-86F¡AF-100A/F¡AF-104Aµ¥ªº½s¶¤­¸¦æ·Ó¡A¥Ø«e¤â¤W§äªº¨ì´N¥u¦³¡u¤¤°ê¤§Ál¡v²Ä2¶°ùØÀY¦³¤@±i¦a­±®Õ¾\¡CF-86DÀ³¸Óºâ¬O°ê­x²Ä¤@ºØ¥þ¤Ñ­Ô¼Q®g¾Ô°«¾÷¡A¥Î¨Ó§Ü¿Å¸Ñ©ñ­xªºMiG-17PF¡A¬ü­x¤G¦¸¤j¾Ô®É¦b¤¤°ê¾Ô°Ï¨Ï¥Î¹LP-61¶Â¹è°ü¡A¦ý±q¥¼¼·¥æ°ê­x³¡¶¤¡C

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NO:50_8
³·­· ¡@©ó¡@2003/01/17 10:06
Re:¬ü°êªÅ­x¾n¥xÆW®É´Áªº¾ú¥v·Ó¤ù

¡ôF-86D Sabre Dog (º|¤F­ÓD´N¤£¥sSabre Dog)

NO:50_9
AD ¡@©ó¡@2003/01/17 10:07
Re:¬ü°êªÅ­x¾n¥xÆW®É´Áªº¾ú¥v·Ó¤ù

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NO:50_10
flak ¡@©ó¡@2003/01/17 10:26
Re:¬ü°êªÅ­x¾n¥xÆW®É´Áªº¾ú¥v·Ó¤ù

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NO:50_11
Sam ¡@©ó¡@2003/01/17 12:10
Re:¬ü°êªÅ­x¾n¥xÆW®É´Áªº¾ú¥v·Ó¤ù

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NO:50_12
flak ¡@©ó¡@2003/01/17 12:38
Re:¬ü°êªÅ­x¾n¥xÆW®É´Áªº¾ú¥v·Ó¤ù

>¦Ñ¹ê»¡¡A¬ü°ê¤Hªº®ÑÄy®Ú¥»ÂÂÁ@¤£°_¤¤µØ¥Á°êªÅ­xªº­¸¦æ­û¡A®Ú¥»¤£´£¤¤°êªÅ­x¬O²Ä¤@­Ó
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NO:50_13
³·­· ¡@©ó¡@2003/01/17 12:41
Re:¬ü°êªÅ­x¾n¥xÆW®É´Áªº¾ú¥v·Ó¤ù

>>¬ü°ê¤Hªº®ÑÄy®Ú¥»ÂÂÁ@¤£°_¤¤µØ¥Á°êªÅ­xªº­¸¦æ­û

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NO:50_14
flak ¡@©ó¡@2003/01/17 12:45
Re:¬ü°êªÅ­x¾n¥xÆW®É´Áªº¾ú¥v·Ó¤ù

³o¬OFASºô¯¸¤¶²ÐAIM-9ªº¡u²Ä¤@¬q¡v
The AIM-9 Sidewinder is a supersonic, heat-seeking, air-to-air missile carried by fighter aircraft. It has a high-explosive warhead and an active infrared guidance system. The Sidewinder was developed by the US Navy for fleet air defense and was adapted by the U.S. Air Force for fighter aircraft use. Early versions of the missile were extensively used in the Southeast Asian conflict. In September 1958 Chinese Nationalist F-86s fired the first Sidewinder air-to-air missiles to down 11 communist Chinese MiG-17s over the Formosa Straits. Until that time, aircraft defensive means where primarily limited to pilots and tail gunners firing small caliber ammunition in dog-fight situations.

NO:50_15
®ÇÆ[ªÌ2 ¡@©ó¡@2003/01/17 14:00
Re:¬ü°êªÅ­x¾n¥xÆW®É´Áªº¾ú¥v·Ó¤ù

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NO:50_16
AD ¡@©ó¡@2003/01/17 14:19
Re:¬ü°êªÅ­x¾n¥xÆW®É´Áªº¾ú¥v·Ó¤ù

³o¸ò³o¨S¦³Ãö«Y¡C
¬ü°ê®üªÅ­x·í®Éªº¥D¤OÁÙ¬O¦U«¬¥b¥D°Ê¹p¹F¾É¤Þ­¸¼u¡AÅT§À³D¯u¥¿¨ü¨ì­«µø¤]¬O¶V¾Ô¹ê¾Ô¸gÅç¥H«áªº¨Æ¡C>>§Ú°Oªº¶V¾Ôªì´Á¬ü°ê­x¤è¨ú®ø¤F¾Ô¾÷¤Wªº¾÷¬¶,¤£´N¬O¦]¬°»{¬°­¸¼u®É¥N¨ÓÁ{,¾÷¬¶¤w¸g¥¢¥h¥\¥Î¤F¶Ü?

NO:50_17
sohonor ¡@©ó¡@2003/01/17 15:10
Re:¬ü°êªÅ­x¾n¥xÆW®É´Áªº¾ú¥v·Ó¤ù

>>¤W¤@¦¸­ì¼t­nÁÙ§ä¤F¨º¥xÆW­¸¦æ­û¨ì¬ü°ê°Ñ¥[ÅT§À³D­¸¼u¬ö©À·|

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