美計劃提供台灣將近三億美元軍機零組件
中央社

(中央社記者鍾行憲華盛頓三十日專電)美國國防部國防安全合作局今天通知國會，五角大廈可能提供台灣各型軍機後勤支援的一項對外軍事銷售案，金額大約為二億八千八百萬美元。

國防安全合作局表示，駐美國台北經濟文化代表處業已要求建立一項後勤供應支援合作安排，為台灣擁有的Ｆ-5Ｅ/Ｆ、Ｃ-130Ｈ和Ｆ-16Ａ/Ｂ飛機及其自製戰機ＩＤＦ的美國系統與次級系統提供零組件支援。

我的看法與分析:

這原本是則平淡無奇的軍機零副件後勤供應支援軍售
但比較特別的是F-5E/F 部分
軍方似乎採購了一批AN/APQ159 (V5)雷達
用來改良提昇約40架的F-5E C構型
所謂的C 構型就是換裝鯊魚頭雷達錐罩與加長翼前緣板
以提昇高攻角性能的那一批較新的F-5E
而原本F-5EC構型的雷達已經由APQ-153換裝成
APQ-159V1~V4型雷達(視序號)
如今再進一步改良到AN/APQ-159 (V5)
(增加雷達搜索角度與平均故障間隔時間延長)
由此改良方案看來雖然空軍手中二代機隊強將如林
但F-5E這位老兵看起來短時間內並不會退出台海空域
尤原是一尾活龍 !
但也不禁想到 那漢翔的F-5E Tiger-2000在哪裡
無論APQ-159雷達再如何改良 究盡還是無法與

Tiger-2000配備的 APG-67 /GD-53雷達相提並論
因為那是不同等級的東西 !
如果此案稱為經濟型的改良案 那虎2000就是豪華型改良案

這個F-5E的雷達改良方案會不會影響到老虎2000的

未來 ! 後續發展值得觀察與注意

sohonor

這筆AN/APQ159 (V5)軍售讓個人不大舒服﹐看來老虎2000的希望越來越渺茫
此外﹐空軍應該是把F-5E擔任二線機種﹐負責訓練及對地支援等工作

在有限的經費下﹐空軍的作法情有可原﹐因為F-5E本身的機身結構有相當的限制﹐
雄二只能掛一枚﹐還不如A-3﹐TC-2或許可載2枚﹐對IDF的幫助還不如讓IDF掛4枚TC-2

可是又很不忍心讓漢翔又少了一個機會﹗

現有的F-5改裝案都依舊有著一個缺點
機砲留不下來
對那些觀念守舊的空軍而言，沒機砲心裡就毛毛的

反正要裝AN/APQ159 (V5)還得要把F-5開到CCK給漢翔裝
空軍會修不代表會整合

與其說漢翔的希望在Tiger2000，不如說是在改雙座
戰爪也還回去了，把咱們的F-5E全改成F-5F吧∼∼∼∼∼∼∼∼∼∼∼
反正近年也很流行教練攻擊機

我倒覺得這決策是正確的 F-5E的改進計劃 在國際上會碰到一堆二手F-16的競爭
根本沒有市場 換句話來說 我們改良的單價會很貴 而且改良限制也很大
再說JFS定案後 美軍開始會有戰機淘汰下來
我們與其去改良F-5E 還不如想辦法把二手F-15C F-16C搞到手 戰力還大一些
況且AN/APQ159 (V5) 也沒有想像中的那麼差
至於支持漢翔 有新的通用直昇機計劃 小型運輸機的計劃
還有IDF改良和研發案 我希望國防部省下經費後對這些計劃會有所幫助

>>與其說漢翔的希望在Tiger2000，不如說是在改雙座
>>戰爪也還回去了，把咱們的F-5E全改成F-5F吧

這我完全贊同 F-5F的特性比T38還強 作超音速教練機蠻合適的 順便也把數位化座艙加上去
而且相信很多國家也有此需求 改裝加整修總比用韓國的新超音速教練機省錢
後勤方面也比較沒問題 對我國來說替別國改裝更沒有機密上的問題

如果只做二手或零件買賣的話 那要的國家可能只有伊朗 菲律賓 或中南美的小國
兩伊戰爭時伊朗還用的蠻順手的
趁美國有求於伊朗時 整理後推銷給伊朗也不錯 不過先要老美同意

還有F-5E就算用了GD-53 以他載彈的能力 要掛麻雀或劍二去玩BVR
那可是要累死他老兄了 花了錢沒多大功用 還是平實一點比較好

從沒聽過F-5E和Mig21的對戰戰史 有沒有人知道的
我很好奇 想知道這Mig21的剋星到底是真是假
如果發生的話 只有可能在越戰後期 兩伊戰爭期間

說到F5E的優點 讓我想到一個非證實的消息 說蘇聯測試從北越取得的F5E
結論是 只要在中低空域次音速的狀況下 最好少和F5E玩纏鬥
測試中的Mig21SM和Mig23 在此狀況纏鬥時都被打的很慘
能做的是加足馬力逃跑讓F5E追不上 但如果加上BVR F5E就不是Mig23的對手
而且此機在小型機中算結構堅強 怪不得老美要選F-5E當他TOPGUN的假想敵
可惜的是未來的空戰 可能越來越少機會看到纏鬥了 F-5E也慢慢失去了他的優勢

南韓「韓國航空宇宙產業」研發的T-50/A-50“金鷹”(Golden Eagle)超音速教練兼輕型攻擊機都首次試飛成功了，咱們的F-CK-1部訓機仍未見半點影子。

AIDC在Tiger2000計劃中也有將F-5E單座機修改為雙座機服務項目，這也是F-CK-1部訓機計劃的另一項備案。

F-5E改成F-5F會是對ROCAF很實用的作為﹐再不給漢翔﹐就太誇張了

The new redars might be used on the RF5 units as those are the ones which need upgraded electronics the most. Besides most of their missions are unarmed to avoid escalating a simple information gathering mission into a fight.

On the other hand i fully aupport upgrading the F-5s to Tiger 2000 TRAINERS which is a cheap way to get advanced jet trainers for ROCAF with decent multi-mission ability.

BTW as a trainer A tiger 2000 unit will be much better because the user interface and radar ability are much closer to the real fighters. Especially for simulating BVR fighting situations.

As a side IDF is as good a trainer as T/A-50 south Korea is building now. Maybe ROCAF should get some IDF Block-2 and turn some of the current IDF to trainers if ROCAF decides to retire all the F-5s.

RF-5機鼻的部分已經是偵查設備，沒有空間裝雷達。

to Cobrachen: duh forgot that >_<

So does anyone have numbers on the lifetime of APQ-159V1~V4??

Maybe ROCAF ordered the units just for the replacement of radars that are near its useful age?

F-5E/F每星期都會看到
我認為能保護台灣的就是好飛機

在11月份的AFM雜誌﹐有則很勁爆的消息

伊朗正發展一種變種F-5E﹐名叫閃電(Azarakhsh),將配RD33發動機﹐這比當初郝總
長任內是F-5E發動機提昇計劃還勁爆﹗

更勁爆的﹐伊朗也正發展一種類似F-14等級﹐雙尾翼的戰機﹐閃電80(Saeqeh-80)
太偉大了﹗

伊朗正發展一種變種F-5E﹐名叫閃電(Azarakhsh),將配RD33發動機﹐這比當初郝總長任內是F-5E發動機提昇計劃還勁爆﹗

Ａ：俄國版虎鯊F-20，參上！！

更勁爆的﹐伊朗也正發展一種類似F-14等級﹐雙尾翼的戰機﹐閃電80(Saeqeh-80)
太偉大了﹗

Ａ：個人猜測，其最後面目為：

1. Su-27／30在伊朗

2. 俄國版的超級雄貓21 （AL系列引擎、被動電子掃描雷達、各式先進俄製AAM....）

當年虎鯊F-20與超級雄貓21滄海遺珠式的悲願與遺憾，搞不好會在當年的宿敵手中獲得補償......想來還真是有些諷刺。

>伊朗正發展一種變種F-5E﹐名叫閃電(Azarakhsh),將配RD33發動機﹐這比當初郝總長任內是F-5E發動機提昇計劃還勁爆﹗
Ａ：俄國版虎鯊F-20，參上！！

這消息還比J-10有趣太多

讓我們憑弔與台灣有緣無份的F-20

剖視圖
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-20_tigershark.jpg

空優任務圖
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-20_air_superiority.gif

近接支援任務圖
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-20_close_air_support.gif

戰鬥巡邏任務圖
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-20_combat_air_patrol.gif

高-低-高阻絕任務圖
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-20_interdiction.gif

空軍月刊有關美軍T38的延壽改良計畫
http://www.mnd.gov.tw/division/~defense/mil/mnd/mhtb/空軍學術月刊/540/540-8.htm

T38真是個怪物 可能會打破T33的噴射教練機使用年限紀錄
我國中時還看過T33在空中飛呢
裡面說延壽的T38可用到2040年 這可以給我們的漢翔和空軍做參考
現有一堆F5E 要不要延壽升級改成F5F 改後還可用個三十年
其實他們機齡很多不到二十年 看到F5E被擺在路邊風吹雨打 真有點於心不忍
古早前 軍品取得困難時 這些F5E被當寶似的
如果現在還是那種情況 也許他們還在天空一展所長

Dear Mr. Skywalker, just a little comment: as far as i understand it, the S.Korean KAI T/A-50 has only been rolled out of the plant, but has not gone thru the flight test stage yet. I believe KAI plans to test fly it around next June (2002).

On another note, the S.Korean govt currently (from an Oct/Nov2001 Flight International report) is focusing on the final choice for the KFX (- likely
candiate may turn out to be the F-15K ?), but as S.Korea now is determined to have an indigenous KF fighter by ~2015, they plan to just buy the KFX instead of
asking for further industrial offsets. The idea is, buy the current KFX now(whether itll be the F-15, or Rafale, Eurofighter, or a Russian Su-product) and then work on S.Koreas own KIF (Korean Indigenous Fighter) afterwards.

Just a thought: i wonder if S.Korea & Taiwan, ROC can work together on a joint aerospace project (Advanced Asian Fighter) & any advantage/ feasibility from such a project --similar to the European Eurofighter project (involving UK, Germany, Spain, etc) ?

There has also been unconfirmed reports in the past (late 70s & early 80s) that Taiwan, ROC (1) had shown interest in the Swiss Phirana (a single engine private venture which looks a bit like the Swedes Gripen).
(2) that Taiwan, ROC was offered to co-work with Israel on the Lavi project, but as the ROC turned it down (as also with the Kfir fighter), Israel then turned to mainland China to continue the project.

1.多年來，台灣屢遭南韓背棄，如今南韓早已琵琶別抱，與中共眉來眼去，中韓合作研發下一代戰機之事，休莫再提﹔南韓現在有世間四大頂尖戰機製造商分別使出渾身解數，以最優惠的利潤與技術轉移來誘惑南韓和其發展下一代軍機，薄情寡義的高麗棒子又怎麼可能自找麻煩，找早已被其背棄的貧賤故友一同合作？？萬一引起其蠻不講理的新朋友的不悅，自製戰機的大計豈不嚴重受到影響？？

2. 與其說是類似JAS-39，瑞士的食人魚戰機計劃的概念應該是更類似今日研發中的MAKO輕型戰機／教練機計劃﹔其有七種不同等級的設計，搭配不同推力級數的引擎與雷達電子設備以符合不同的需求（教練機／攻擊機／輕型多用途戰機）﹔依照有限的文獻記載，其終極型的基本性能指標近似F-16A與M-2000C，略勝F-20一籌﹔不過由於其基本飛機大小重量實在太小（介於5至6噸級間），比起JAS-39／F-20／FCK-1還小上一號，故無論是籌載量／作戰航程／未來升級發展空間均太過受限，以至於最終乏人問津。

3. 當年我國外交部顧忌於和沙烏地的邦誼，因此在不願得罪友邦的情況下強迫軍方放棄接手以色列這架傑作機的計劃，結果十年之後，友邦琵琶別抱，傑作機也被中共接手，中國可說是左右逢源，人財兩得，我方則是賠了夫人又折兵，兩頭皆空............

嘔呀∼∼∼∼∼∼∼∼∼∼∼∼∼......................　

Dear Toga, thanks for your research & updates. I simply only know just half the story. Ummmh, oh well, no S.Korea (formerly anti-Comm. ally),
no Israel (formerly sold us the techn. e.g. Gabriel missles), should Taiwan, ROC
go solo (just kidding) on any major ventures (e.g. ADF) ?

I was wondering about the ROCs future aerospace industry (now kind of shouldered by AIDC) -- there seems to be some civilian prospects (e.g. projects with Ae270, Boeing B-717, Bombardier, etc), but hopefully ROC can obtain more beneficial industrial offsets in current/future aviation deals.

Another issue is that of engines. I sure hope therell be funding to further develop ROCs indigenous jet engines. Many have hoped/ wondered if the govt
will invest funds in the J-101, or TFE1088, or similar performance projects ?
One article mentioned S.Korea airplane makers admit that Taiwans aerospace technology is at least 20 years ahead of theirs -- i dont know in which particular area, but i do feel the ROC should really invest/ spend more effort
whenever feasible, in the aero engine section.

Finally (this may need a separate section/ discussion forum), KAI is a consolidation of S.Koreas various aero industries (Hyndai, Samsung, etc)
I wonder if itll be feasible for some of ROCs aerospace industries to pool together their resources so as to be able to invest in some major viable projects (be it civilian or military) as mentioned above.
Being in Canada, I understand that once the RoyalCanadianAirForce, or the Canadian govt, rather, had scrapped the Avro CF-105 Arrow (a FBW jet interceptor,really ahead of its times), the aftermath was a huge exodus of Avro employees going to the US & UK (Avro closed after the project was cancelled), and since then, Canada never ever produced an indigenous combat jet
(like Sweden had continued to produce) but eventually when things settled down,
Canada majored in other fields (as Bombardier excelled in reginal jetliners, helicopters, etc).

Modern fighters require so much technology & resources -- when i think of the Eurofighter (UK, Spain, Italy, Germany, etc), I just couldnt help but feel that itll be nice if Taiwan, ROC can get a helping hand (aside from the USA) in partnering with nations like S.Korea (that is before i realize a bit more what had transpired). We need more friends !!! The Ae270 is a nice example of partnering with a formerly unlikely prospect. Wonder if we can get secret help from some neutual ones -- better still, turn some rivals into reliable friends (heh heh)? Thanks once again Toga for your input. Good to have you as a friend at this forum. I was expecting a reply perhaps from Mr. Skywalker, but perhaps later when he has some time. You are quite well read yourself. Please continue to make edifying contributions to this forum for all of us here to benefit.

To caf

IMHO,not everybody here can read English pretty well,especially some one you are expecting to comment your question.

It would be better to use some Chinese input to communicate with most people here.

Dear Siu Hu Mei, i really like to use Chinese, but i dont know how on the compuer. I was actually participating in the English Taiwan Military Forum
and found this site while i was visiting that site. Sorry.
Actually i do understand the Chinese replies. Wonder if its possible
to write in English & get my replies in Chinese (i understand what you wrote). Any further comment please --as i do really like to join your forum discussions (esp. on the ROCs aviation industry) ?

caf bro,

You may try NJ-Star. Here is the link, and you can download some free input software.

http://www.njstar.com/

To be frank with you, I utilize the PRC PIN-YIN to input, Not quite difficult to learn. The only trick is practicing makes perfect.

Your comments are always welcomed here. Just my personal opinion, typing Chinses will draw more people to join your discussion. ^_^
Good Luck!

Dear Siu Hu Mei: (i hope you dont mind me this version of your pen name as i dont quite know how to express it) Thank you kindly for the tips and encouragement !!!
Aaahh, i hope eventually ill get a chance to learn it. And in the meantime, i hope language (just a way for man to express his views) will be no barrier to hearty discussions --provided we do want to be constructive and not be idle or empty talkers -- i truly enjoy it here & appreciate the degree of professionalism & information shared here by other fellow believers in the Republic of CHINA --provided it does not cause any damage to national security,
otherwise, feel free to censor/ delete such items. Take good care & GOD bless.

caf bro,
Thank you! My friend. Good Luck!

倒是可以考慮與以色列合作
用減能的GD-53+以色列的蟒蛇5

Would be nice if ROC can get into joint venture/ co-op. programs with nations with aerospace expertise & reap benefits from such projects -- even with those without (and there are so many now) diplomatic relations. We all still recall the 70s & 80s as the decades when the ROC had low key /semi-secret arms dealings with SouthAfrica (before the current govt), Israel. In those days, Taiwan ROC and those 2 nations each made up a member of this unrecognized military techn. exchange triangle. Obviously the current world situation may not favour such an alliance now, but other ways & other techn. exchange dealings with others may still be possible & can be pursued.

倒是可以考慮與以色列合作
用減能的GD-53+以色列的蟒蛇5

除非台灣想要引進巨蟒五型, 否則以色列有何動機或理由這樣做??老以本身就有GD-53降級版等級的自製戰機雷達可和巨蟒五型完美搭配, 用於各國的F-5升級改良計畫上; 和遭各國軍事交流孤立的台灣合作又不能拓展商機, 又得耗費時間精力與金錢將巨蟒五型和GD-53整合, 還得讓台灣分一杯羹......猶太人豈有做起此等慈善事業之理??

>猶太人豈有做起此等慈善事業之理??

說得也是﹗

對了﹐以前曾聽聞F-16也可以發射MICA﹐其實以MICA的特性﹐比AIM-120更適合放在
F-5E上面﹐或許漢翔可跟法國合作﹐搞不好空軍會很有興趣

>>對了﹐以前曾聽聞F-16也可以發射MICA﹐其實以MICA的特性﹐比AIM-120更適合放在
F-5E上面﹐或許漢翔可跟法國合作﹐搞不好空軍會很有興趣

A:老美為了確保AIM-120銷售市場絕對抵制MICA整合於F-16
而F-5E也是美國的飛機
另有一想法, IDF雖然有劍二
但以重量而言無論是MICA-EM / MICA-IR都非常適合IDF此種輕型戰機的特性
(MICA/110Kg TC-2/184Kg )如果IDF除了TC-2外也可發射MICA也很好
法國人為了做生意可能有意願!
但是........

>如果IDF除了TC-2外也可發射MICA也很好

是非常好﹗由其是IR那款﹐簡直就是現成的高偏軸AAM
配上SIXTANT的頭盔就更完美
不過好像只能作夢 555555