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¥Õ¶³ ¡@©ó¡@2000/11/09 01:51
µoªí¤º®e¡G
The very top post, in my humble opinion, was not written by a PLA
officer. Or, he should be dismissed because he knows nothing about
China/PLAs nuclear policy.
As for Mr.Ra,
>>¹ï©óªÅxªºÄ¬³Í¾Ô¾÷¡A§Aªº¤F¸Ñ¤´¤£¥þ±¡A´N§Ú±q«nªÅ
¾÷×¼tªº¤F¸Ñ¡A§ÚxªºÄ¬³Íµo°Ê¾÷§¹¥þ¤£¯à¦Û¨î¡C³s¤j
׳£¨Ì¿à«X°êªº¤ä´©¡A©Ò¿×°eªð«X°ê¦³¨Ç¨¥¹L¨äµü¡A¤£¹L
¦bµL³Æ¥ó©M§Þ³N«ü¾Éªº±ø¥ó¤U¡A§ÚxµL¤O§¹¥þ«O¾iºûÅ@
Ĭ³Íªº°Ê¤O¤Î¯è¹q³]³Æ¬O¹ê»Ú±¡ªp¡C§ó½Í¤£¤W¥Î¥é»s¾÷
¨Ó¸É¥R¡]¨ì¥h¦~¦~©³¡A§Ú°êªº¥é»s¾÷¤´¤£¯à§¹¤u¹F¼Ð¡^¡C <<
This is true or not true. Aero engine is much more different
than engine used in your car. Unless you have the fundamental
maintenance facility and enough spare parts, you wont be
able to fly SU27 at all. Yet SU27s are often spotted by amateur
fans. About §ÚxµL¤O§¹¥þ«O¾iºûÅ@Ĭ³Íªº°Ê¤O¤Î¯è¹q³]³Æ¬O¹ê»Ú±¡ªp,
you need to define §¹¥þ«O¾iºûÅ@Ĭ³Íªº°Ê¤O¤Î¯è¹q³]³Æ first.
Your information about domestic SU27 is not accurate.
As ¥H¢±¢¯¢°¢¯¦~¦Ó¨¥¡M¥H¼u¹D¸¼u¦Ó¨¥¡MÁ`¦@¬ù¢¸¢´¢¯¡Ë¢°¢¯¢¯¢¯ªT¡M
¨µ¤|¸¼u¤£¸Ô¡MªÅÀu¾Ô¾÷¬°¢Ø¢¶¡M¢Ø¢·¡M¢³¢¯¢¯¬[¡M¢Ø¢°¢°¬ù¢²¢²¢¯¬[¡M
¢Ø¢°¢¯¥i¯à¢²¢¯¢¯¬[¡MÁ`¦@¬ù¢°¢¯¢²¢¯¬[
I sincerely hope there will never be a war between Chinese. However,
there is a trend here to under-estimate ML Chinas power and ability.
To say the least, ML China has three times more GDP and can manage
to afford much more, if you re-consider Taiwans fighter fleet...
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¤pº§À ¡@©ó¡@2000/11/09 02:31
µoªí¤º®e¡G
I sincerely hope there will never be a war between Chinese.
me,too!
However,there is a trend here to under-estimate ML Chinas power and ability.
Doesnt sound very accurate!
To say the least, ML China has three times more GDP and can manage to afford much more, if you re-consider Taiwans fighter fleet...
I am soory.
I still have no hint about what you implied.
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¥Õ¶³ ¡@©ó¡@2000/11/09 05:22
µoªí¤º®e¡G
>>To say the least, ML China has three times more GDP and can manage to afford much more, if you
re-consider Taiwans fighter fleet...
I am soory.
I still have no hint about what you implied.
Put everything in a nutshell, ML can afford 3 times larger advanced
fighter fleet.
People may argue, that ML has to maintain a much larger army, navy,
as well as a nuclear force which Taiwan does not have. Still, MLs
cost on personnel is much lower. As a result, MLs weapon systems (mostly
domestic) are cheaper. As far as I know, a fully loaded J8IID costs about
8 million US dollars (less than 70 million RenMinBi Yuans).
The reason that ML bought the license of SU27 was ML wanted to cut the cost
as most as 30-50%. So you may get the idea.
I dont want to talk about U or I here, wrong place. But, in my humble opinion,
ML still hopes there is no war across the strait. Otherwise, you can easily
see hundreds of SU27/J8/J10 flying.
I say that there is a trend of under-estimating, and I dont blame you guys.
For example, its widely reported that China had huge problems in assembling
SU27 from knock down kits. Come on, 15 years ago China could already assemble
MD82/83 in high quality and won several then McDonald Douglass medals. Besides,
countries like Turkey with near to zero aero-industry can do well in F16. So why
cannot China?
OK, Im being unsubstantiated here, but hope you know what I mean. Anyway,
I still believe ML is still hoping for a peaceful resolution, and mu judgement is
based on that ML is still not going full steam in weapon system productions.
As for filthy words, you are entitled to use any kind of words. Its your board
right? Its just I feel you dont need to use these words to express your opinion.
Anyway, its your call, and I dont have a problem.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
¤pº§À ¡@©ó¡@2000/11/09 09:01
µoªí¤º®e¡G
Put everything in a nutshell, ML can afford 3 times larger advanced
fighter fleet.
People may argue, that ML has to maintain a much larger army, navy,
as well as a nuclear force which Taiwan does not have. Still, MLs
cost on personnel is much lower. As a result, MLs weapon systems (mostly
domestic) are cheaper. As far as I know, a fully loaded J8IID costs about
8 million US dollars (less than 70 million RenMinBi Yuans).
The reason that ML bought the license of SU27 was ML wanted to cut the cost
as most as 30-50%. So you may get the idea.
PLA may be able to afford the fighters fleet which is 3 times of current one.
However, regarding those imported fighters, even some of advanced domestic one like J10, it may not be that optimistic, since it is not completely under Chinas control!
I dont want to talk about U or I here, wrong place. But, in my humble opinion,
ML still hopes there is no war across the strait. Otherwise, you can easily
see hundreds of SU27/J8/J10 flying.
Very interesting statement!
You mentioned hundreds of SU27/J8/J10 flying.
Could you give the hint about a more accurate number like 200,300,or 400s? I am really curious.
BTW,you said you can easily see hundreds of SU27/J8/J10 flying. Where could I easily see them?
In the terriotary of Taiwan?
I say that there is a trend of under-estimating, and I dont blame you guys.
For example, its widely reported that China had huge problems in assembling
SU27 from knock down kits. Come on, 15 years ago China could already assemble
MD82/83 in high quality and won several then McDonald Douglass medals. Besides,
countries like Turkey with near to zero aero-industry can do well in F16. So why
cannot China?
Still, it is not accurate to indicate such trend here.
First, you just get one example, and it does not cover the trend here.
Second, speaking of assemblying quality, more factors are involved for an imported one than an indegenous one.
I believe that those crews in SU27 assembly factory are skilled. Since SU27 assembly line is imported from Russia or constructed under Russia tech groups supervision, it implies that Russia is still deeply involved with entire project and China has less control.
For instance, what if Russia give some incomplte SOPs intentionally? Even those assembly crew are highly skilled, how could you expect they make good quality product?
Or, Russia did not give some right specs. Although some parts factories made the parts according to the provided spec, eventually, those parts were still not fitted during the assemebling and jeopardized the entire quality.
OK, Im being unsubstantiated here, but hope you know what I mean. Anyway,
I still believe ML is still hoping for a peaceful resolution, and mu judgement is
based on that ML is still not going full steam in weapon system productions.
Great!
As for filthy words, you are entitled to use any kind of words. Its your board
right? Its just I feel you dont need to use these words to express your opinion.
Anyway, its your call, and I dont have a problem.
OK! Suggestion taken!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
admirer ¡@©ó¡@2000/11/09 09:09
µoªí¤º®e¡G
¥Õ¶³ : You can say that again,I like your impersonal words! that is the only right way when you want to dispute. To be frankly, there is absolutely a trend here to under-estimate PLA and boast about Taiwan.
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¤pº§À ¡@©ó¡@2000/11/09 09:12
µoªí¤º®e¡G
To be frankly, there is absolutely a trend here to under-estimate PLA and boast about Taiwan.
Dear admirer,
Could you give us more details which will make your statement more convincing?
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admirer ¡@©ó¡@2000/11/09 09:22
µoªí¤º®e¡G
I just a stranger here,I do not like to argue with you.
I hate war but I think after the war begining, you will see. The only thing I want to say is :It is dangerous that our country has this trend,especially in your BBS.
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¤pº§À ¡@©ó¡@2000/11/09 09:27
µoªí¤º®e¡G
I just a stranger here,I do not like to argue with you.
Sound like I lost some chance to learn somthing?!
>_<
I hate war but I think after the war begining, you will see.
Both of us will see!
The only thing I want to say is :It is dangerous that our country has this trend,especially in your BBS.
Our country?!
My country is Taiwan or Republic of China.
What is your country?
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¥Õ¶³ ¡@©ó¡@2000/11/09 09:40
µoªí¤º®e¡G
>>PLA may be able to afford the fighters fleet which is 3 times of current one.
However, regarding those imported fighters, even some of advanced domestic one like J10, it may not
be that optimistic, since it is not completely under Chinas control!<<
The 3-times saying was based on the assumption that China buys foreign
toys with foreign currencies. For domestic products which are usually much
cheaper, the number could be even larger. About the control, hard to
say. Only money talks, in todays world. For example, if China wants,
she could get top of line french toys. Rumor already says French is trying
to sell their M53P2 for JH7, and M88-2 for some unspecified aircraft. For
Russian toys, even more so.
>>You mentioned hundreds of SU27/J8/J10 flying.
Could you give the hint about a more accurate number like 200,300,or 400s? I am really curious.
BTW,you said you can easily see hundreds of SU27/J8/J10 flying. Where could I easily see them?
In the terriotary of Taiwan?<<
China needs approximately 2500 fighter jets to take care of its
air defence. So, each year, it should produce more than 120 new
ones. Obviously, China didnt do so since late 80s, and is still
not doing so today. So, China is not actively pursuing a war with
Taiwan. Thats what I meant.
To admirer, thanks for your kind words. Boasting is human nature.
As a Chinese originally from ML, I just want to share MY views with
other people in this board, to possibly reduce mis-understanding and
mis-information. Peace and prosperity are what we Chinese really want
(though I admit Im also a military fan). Its just such a pain
that our great nation/people has suffered so much since last century.
good night,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
¤pº§À ¡@©ó¡@2000/11/09 09:58
µoªí¤º®e¡G
The 3-times saying was based on the assumption that China buys foreign
toys with foreign currencies. For domestic products which are usually much
cheaper, the number could be even larger.
It will be rigt if no foreign fighters are purchased.
About the control, hard to
say. Only money talks, in todays world. For example, if China wants,
she could get top of line french toys. Rumor already says French is trying
to sell their M53P2 for JH7, and M88-2 for some unspecified aircraft. For
Russian toys, even more so.
Money do talk!
However, your example is on weak ground. As you said, those deals are according to rumor. That makes the statement quite weak.
>>You mentioned hundreds of SU27/J8/J10 flying.
Could you give the hint about a more accurate number like 200,300,or 400s? I am really curious.
BTW,you said you can easily see hundreds of SU27/J8/J10 flying. Where could I easily see them?
In the terriotary of Taiwan?<<
China needs approximately 2500 fighter jets to take care of its
air defence. So, each year, it should produce more than 120 new
ones. Obviously, China didnt do so since late 80s, and is still
not doing so today. So, China is not actively pursuing a war with
Taiwan. Thats what I meant.
I do appreciate the Chinas goodness for sparing Taiwan.
But, you said I dont want to talk about U or I here, wrong place. But, in my humble opinion,ML still hopes there is no war across the strait. Otherwise, you can easily see hundreds of SU27/J8/J10 flying.
So far, there are already hundreds of SU27/J8/J10 flying in China and there is no war now.
That is why I am so curious about where those hundreds fighters are going to fly?
Or, you just meant that PLA is going to pursue hundreds of SU27/J10/J8 per year if they are going to prepare the war?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
¥Õ¶³ ¡@©ó¡@2000/11/09 11:23
µoªí¤º®e¡G
>>The 3-times saying was based on the assumption that China buys foreign
toys with foreign currencies. For domestic products which are usually much
cheaper, the number could be even larger. <<
It will be rigt if no foreign fighters are purchased.
Nope. The three times GDP is calculated by hard or real exchange
ratio. This means China CAN afford buying 3 times of foreign fighters using
hard currencies. If you look at the purchasing power number, China is
at 4 trillion dollar mark, which is more than ten times of that of Taiwans GDP.
>>However, your example is on weak ground. As you said, those deals are according to rumor. That makes the
statement quite weak.<<
Janes emails me the abstract of JDW every week (for free of course),
and this is the source of the rumors that I heard. In this
(mis)information era, I take everything with discount. No offense to you,
I also take many new developments in Taiwan and plans for
development as rumors.
OK thats off the topic. The point I want to make is that China can
get fancy toys if it wants, because money talks and even a western
country like France is willing to sell top toys to China. (I didnt
see denial from snecma, no confirmation from either side, either)
>>Or, you just meant that PLA is going to pursue hundreds of SU27/J10/J8 per year if they are going to prepare
the war?<<
Yes, I meant China has not been producing hundreds of SU27/J10/J8
per year and this implies that they have not been actively pursuing
a war. I changed some words from yours you just meant that PLA is
going to pursue hundreds of SU27/J10/J8 per year if they are going
to prepare the war.
As an army, PLA has to be prepared for war scenario. So is ROC army.
Again, I doubt the identity of the author of the very top article.
PLA does not allow its officers to post on public BBS.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
¤pº§À ¡@©ó¡@2000/11/09 12:16
µoªí¤º®e¡G
Nope. The three times GDP is calculated by hard or real exchange
ratio. This means China CAN afford buying 3 times of foreign fighters using
hard currencies. If you look at the purchasing power number, China is
at 4 trillion dollar mark, which is more than ten times of that of Taiwans GDP.
However, in regard of purchasing foreign fighters like SU27, China did not pay the cash completely. China paid half cash and traded with civil goods.
No offense to you,
I also take many new developments in Taiwan and plans for
development as rumors.
Well, it is none of my business.
OK thats off the topic. The point I want to make is that China can
get fancy toys if it wants, because money talks and even a western
country like France is willing to sell top toys to China. (I didnt
see denial from snecma, no confirmation from either side, either)
In my humble opion, such case may apply to France quite well, since there is no interest conflict or potential threat between China and France.
However, in the Russia case, it is obvious that the Russia weapon systems sold to India are always more advanced than the one for China. It indicates that the mutual trust between China and Russia is not quite solid.
Therefore, in Russia case, China may get lot sophiscated system from Rusia. Nevertheless, will China get the ones she do need? It is very doubtful.
Again, I doubt the identity of the author of the very top article.
PLA does not allow its officers to post on public BBS.
I think you are right.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
¥Õ¶³ ¡@©ó¡@2000/11/09 12:52
µoªí¤º®e¡G
>>However, in regard of purchasing foreign fighters like SU27, China did not pay the cash completely. China
paid half cash and traded with civil goods.<<
Thats called bargain, and thats another way to reduce the price.
>>However, in the Russia case, it is obvious that the Russia weapon systems sold to India are always more
advanced than the one for China. It indicates that the mutual trust between China and Russia is not quite solid.
Therefore, in Russia case, China may get lot sophiscated system from Rusia. Nevertheless, will China get the
ones she do need? It is very doubtful.<<
Thats debatable, although thats been said again and again.
Other than on SU30 that China got SU30MKK while India got SU30MKI, I dont see
much difference. Now for the two SU30 deals, its said SU30MKK is a clean deal
that can delivered quickly, India is still waiting for the Russians to update
their first 10 SU30 to MKI standard. What they have in hand is actually SU27UB, and
new avionics and TVC are not ready yet. Probably nothing will happen before
next year. It seems to me that China got what it wants - a deep strike fighter
bomber with decent precision striking weapon systems. I just dont see why
MKI needs TVC.
For other systems, I dont see much difference between India and China.
India was given the licence of Mig29, and China got SU27. Both of them got
S300V. Both of them got Kilo, and China has two Kilo 636s which are
better than Indias 877s.
>>Therefore, in Russia case, China may get lot sophiscated system from Rusia. Nevertheless, will China get the
ones she do need? It is very doubtful.<<
It seems to me that China has been getting good deals: SU27/30, IL76,
S300 SAM, 956E DDG, BMD APC, etc. Beggars cannot be picky. At this point,
Russian economy is still in deep trouble. Latest rumor from ZhuHai airshow
says Russian agreed upon another 2 billion USD deal with China, including
AWACS and two more DDGs.
Just a side note. I dont think ML buying 956 DDGs is to counter US
CVBG. Its just because the embargo of American gas turbines after 1990 suddenly
cut off Chinas capability of producing new DDGs, and the buying is an urgent
measure to maintain a sizable fleet.
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ra ¡@©ó¡@2000/11/09 20:16
µoªí¤º®e¡G
¬JµM¥Õ¶³°Ý¨ì¤F,´N»¡¤@¤U¦n¤F,¤@¯ë¦Ó¨¥,¸¾÷ªº¤ÞÀº¬O¾ã¾÷¤¤³Ì«nªº³¡¥ó¤§¤@,¦ÓĬ³Íªº¤ÞÀº¬O§Ú°ê³ÌÆf¥Øªº¤Þ¶i¶µ¥Ø,³oÓ¶µ¥Øµ´¹ï¤£¶È¶È¬O¤@ÓĬ³Í¾÷ªº¨Ï¥Îªº°ÝÃD,¦Ó¬O¾ãÓ¤¤°ê¯èªÅªº³]p´£°ªªºn¨D,¦ý¬O¦P²z,¤]¬O«Xù´µ°í¨M©Úµ´¬°§Ú°ê´£¨Ñ¥ô¦ó®Ö¤ß§Þ³Nªº²z¥Ñ,«X°ê¤H¹ï¤¤°êªº§Þ³N«ÊÂê´X¥G¥i¥H©M¤Ú²Î·|·B¬ü,¦Ó¥B¦bĬ³Íªº¤ÞÀº§Þ³N¤W¯S§OV¨è(¦b¯è¹q³]³Æ¤W¥L̤@³e¥H¦¸¥R¦n,¦Ó¥B¹ý©³ªº¸T¤î¤¤°êªº§Þ³N¤Þ¶in¨D),°ß¤@ªº¥Øªº¬O«OÃÒ¤¤°ê¦bµu´Á内µ´¹ï¤£¥i¯à¥é»s©M®ø¤Æ¸Ó¶µ§Þ³N,¥Dn³Æ¥ó§ó´«©MºûÅ@¥²¶·¦b«X°ê§Þ³N±M®aªººÊ·þ©MÀ°§U¤U¶i¦æ,³o¬O¶i¤f¸¾÷®Éªº¨óijn¨D(¦b§Ú°ê¥Í²£ªºÄ¬¶}¹ê»Ú¬O²Õ¸Ë,¦]爲©Ò¦³ªº¥Dn³¡¥ó§¡¬°¶i¤f,¦Ó¥BÄY¸T¥é»s,¤ñ»OÆWªº¯S»Ý¥Í²£ÁÙ¥i¼¦),ɤf³oÓ¨óij,«X°ê¤H¦b§Þ³N¤W±±¨îµÛ©Ò¦³ªº¥DnºûÅ@§@·~ªº¹B§@,¦Ó¥B§Q¥Î¹ï³Æ¥ó¥X°âªººÞ¨î¨c¨c¦a«OÃÒ³oӨ¦³®Ä©Ê.µ²ªG³y¦¨«X°ê¤H¥´Ó¼QÀ¡,¤¤°êªºÄ¬³Í´N¤£¯à¤ÉªÅªºµ~§x¹Ò¦a(¦n¦ü¥ì®ÔªºF-14),³o¼Ëªº§xµ~,¬Û«H¦P¼Ë¨Ï¥Î¹L¥~°ê¸¾÷ªº»OÆWªÅx¤]¨£ÃѹL,©Ò¥H«Ü´Ü¨Ø§ḀͲ£¥XIDF³o¼Ëªº°ê²£¾÷,¤ñ¸û°_¨Ó,¨ºÓ20¦~¤£ÅS±ªº¶W¯ÅÁô§Î¾Ô¾÷F-10(°£¤F¤¤µØ·R°êªÌÌ,½Ö¤]¬Ý¤£¨£!)´N¤Ó...........
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¤pº§À ¡@©ó¡@2000/11/09 21:31
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IDF¤]¬O³Q¬ü°êé¤F¦n´X¼h¥Ö¡M¬ü°êªº°ê¨¾¬ì¨¾µo¹F¨ì´X¥G
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³½¦×¡M¬ü°ê·íªì´N¤w¸g¹ïIDFªºªø»·µo®i°µ¦n¤F¡§³W¹º¡¨¡M¥x
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¤jªºµo°Ê¾÷¡M¥xÆW¤è±n¹F¦¨¨¬°÷ªº±À«¤ñ¡MªÖ©w¬O¦b¾÷¨¤W
¤U¥\¤Ò¡M·í¹F¨ì¨¬°÷ªº±À«¤ñ®É¡M¸¾÷ªº¯èµ{´N»·¤£¦pF16¡C
§ó¼F®`ªº¡M¥xÆWµo®iIDF¡M¬ü°ê°£¤F§Þ³N«ü¾É¥~¡M¤]¬£¤F¤@¨Ç
¦~»´¤uµ{®v¾Ç²ß¡M¦]¬°³q±`¤@Ó¯èªÅ¤uµ{®v¤@½ú¤l¤j¦h¥u¦³³]
p¤@¬[¸¾÷ªº¸gÅç¡M³oºâ½L¥´±o¥i´Î¤F¡T
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°ê¤w¸g¦³¯à¸¨ì¬Y°ª«×ªº¾Ô¾÷¡M¨º®É¤~´«RB-57Dµ¹¥xÆW¡M³o
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¥Õ¶³ ¡@©ó¡@2000/11/09 22:37
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>>¬JµM¥Õ¶³°Ý¨ì¤F,´N»¡¤@¤U¦n¤F,¤@¯ë¦Ó¨¥,¸¾÷ªº¤ÞÀº¬O¾ã¾÷¤¤³Ì«nªº³¡¥ó¤§¤@,¦ÓĬ³Íªº
¤ÞÀº¬O§Ú°ê³ÌÆf¥Øªº¤Þ¶i¶µ¥Ø,³oÓ¶µ¥Øµ´¹ï¤£¶È¶È¬O¤@ÓĬ³Í¾÷ªº¨Ï¥Îªº°ÝÃD,¦Ó¬O¾ãÓ
¤¤°ê¯èªÅªº³]p´£°ªªºn¨D,¦ý¬O¦P²z,¤]¬O«Xù´µ°í¨M©Úµ´¬°§Ú°ê´£¨Ñ¥ô¦ó®Ö¤ß§Þ³Nªº²z
¥Ñ,«X°ê¤H¹ï¤¤°êªº§Þ³N«ÊÂê´X¥G¥i¥H©M¤Ú²Î·|·B¬ü,¦Ó¥B¦bĬ³Íªº¤ÞÀº§Þ³N¤W¯S§OV¨è(¦b
¯è¹q³]³Æ¤W¥L̤@³e¥H¦¸¥R¦n,¦Ó¥B¹ý©³ªº¸T¤î¤¤°êªº§Þ³N¤Þ¶in¨D),°ß¤@ªº¥Øªº¬O«OÃÒ¤¤
°ê¦bµu´Á?µ´¹ï¤£¥i¯à¥é»s©M®ø¤Æ¸Ó¶µ§Þ³N,¥Dn³Æ¥ó§ó´«©MºûÅ@¥²¶·¦b«X°ê§Þ³N±M®aªººÊ
·þ©MÀ°§U¤U¶i¦æ,³o¬O¶i¤f¸¾÷®Éªº¨óijn¨D(¦b§Ú°ê¥Í²£ªºÄ¬¶}¹ê»Ú¬O²Õ¸Ë,¦]?©Ò¦³ªº¥D
n³¡¥ó§¡¬°¶i¤f,¦Ó¥BÄY¸T¥é»s,¤ñ»OÆWªº¯S»Ý¥Í²£ÁÙ¥i¼¦),ɤf³oÓ¨óij,«X°ê¤H¦b§Þ³N¤W
±±¨îµÛ©Ò¦³ªº¥DnºûÅ@§@·~ªº¹B§@,¦Ó¥B§Q¥Î¹ï³Æ¥ó¥X°âªººÞ¨î¨c¨c¦a«OÃÒ³oӨ¦³
®Ä©Ê.µ²ªG³y¦¨«X°ê¤H¥´Ó¼QÀ¡,¤¤°êªºÄ¬³Í´N¤£¯à¤ÉªÅªºµ~§x¹Ò¦a(¦n¦ü¥ì®ÔªºF-14),³o¼Ëªº
§xµ~,¬Û«H¦P¼Ë¨Ï¥Î¹L¥~°ê¸¾÷ªº»OÆWªÅx¤]¨£ÃѹL,©Ò¥H«Ü´Ü¨Ø§ḀͲ£¥XIDF³o¼Ëªº°ê²£
¾÷,¤ñ¸û°_¨Ó,¨ºÓ20¦~¤£ÅS±ªº¶W¯ÅÁô§Î¾Ô¾÷F-10(°£¤F¤¤µØ·R°êªÌÌ,½Ö¤]¬Ý¤£¨£!)´N
¤Ó...........<<
Ra¥S¡Aas always,§Aªº®ø®§Á`¬O¦³ÂI¦ü¬O¦Ó«D¡C(I guess you know what I mean)
I have left ML for years. Still, somehow I can manage to get some Ãä½t®ø®§¡C
For example, you said ¦b¯è¹q³]³Æ¤W¥L̤@³e¥H¦¸¥R¦n,¦Ó¥B¹ý©³ªº¸T¤î¤¤°êªº§Þ³N
¤Þ¶in¨D,you know the reason why all of a sudden ML started to get their own
JL10/10A/15 going?(All those PD radars have been displayed in airshows, so they
are no longer rumors.) As time goes on you might be able to see the similarity
between them and Russian toys.
As for J10, its not really a 20-year project. If you really know the inside story
about the engine deal between Chinese and Russians, you wouldnt have doubted the
existance of J10...
BTW, which university did you graduate, from ML? Im from the number one university
in Shanghai.
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¤pº§À ¡@©ó¡@2000/11/09 23:12
µoªí¤º®e¡G
you know the reason why all of a sudden ML started to get their own
JL10/10A/15 going?(All those PD radars have been displayed in airshows, so they
are no longer rumors.) As time goes on you might be able to see the similarity
between them and Russian toys.
Very interesting info!
What are the specs for those JL10/10A/15?
What is the similarity between those JL10/10A/15 and Russia PD radars?
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¥Õ¶³ ¡@©ó¡@2000/11/10 00:39
µoªí¤º®e¡G
>>What are the specs for those JL10/10A/15?
What is the similarity between those JL10/10A/15
and Russia PD radars?<<
Something about JL10A can be found here, (I can only quote
open source)
http://www.plamilitary.com/plaaf_fbc1.html
JL15 has 30% more detection range.
Similarity? cannot tell ya:-)
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9999 ¡@©ó¡@2000/11/10 01:16
µoªí¤º®e¡G
BTW, which university did you graduate, from ML? Im from the number one university
in Shanghai.
Which one? FuDan or JiaoTong? No.1 university is always debatable, no matter in Shanghai or in China.
:-)
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¤pº§À ¡@©ó¡@2000/11/10 01:28
µoªí¤º®e¡G
>Something about JL10A can be found here, (I can only quote
open source)
http://www.plamilitary.com/plaaf_fbc1.html
Thank you for the infomation.
However,I did not see any info regarding JL10A. Or, is it the one associated with PLAAFs JH-7?
At mean time, I do not find the info about JL15A.
Anyway,thanks again.
Similarity? cannot tell ya:-)
^_^
I am afraid that your judgement agaist ra may not be valid.
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¥Õ¶³ ¡@©ó¡@2000/11/10 01:41
µoªí¤º®e¡G
To ¤pº§À
However,I did not see any info regarding JL10A. Or, is it the one associated with PLAAFs JH-7?
Yes, that should be JL10A. ML uses different code name for
their toys under different circumstances.
At mean time, I do not find the info about JL15A.
30% more detection range than JL10A, track 15 attack 4. (official
information)
I am afraid that your judgement agaist ra may not be valid
Point taken. Say sorry to all - I didnt have a ground on
doubting ras identity.
To 9999
Which one? FuDan or JiaoTong? No.1 university is always debatable, no matter in Shanghai or in China.
:-)
Peace. :-) We are all good ... still I believe mine is better...this time
Im saying it to myself, hahaha
Good day.
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¤pº§À ¡@©ó¡@2000/11/10 02:00
µoªí¤º®e¡G
30% more detection range than JL10A, track 15 attack 4. (official
information)
Thanks lot.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
9999 ¡@©ó¡@2000/11/10 02:44
µoªí¤º®e¡G
Peace. :-) We are all good ... still I believe mine is better...this time
Im saying it to myself, hahaha
I know. I am not from Shanghai. And I am just curious.
As you may know, in Beijing, we always say we are the No.1. But one of our neighbors does not agree with us. So... You still can see we fight with each other, from time to time.
:-)
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ra ¡@©ó¡@2000/11/10 07:58
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¹ï©ó¯è¹q³]³Æ,§A´£¤Îªº³]³ÆÉŲªº§Þ³N¬O«Xù´µÁÙ¬O¦è¤è°ê®a©O?§Ú°ê³q¹L°Ó·~³~®|Àò±o¦Û¦è¤èªº§Þ³N¤ñ¨Ó¦Û«Xù´µxÁʪºÁÙ¦h,³o´N«Ü説©ú°ÝÃD¤F,§Ú̦b½Í«X°ê¹ïµØx°â¹ï¤£¹ï?³o¼Ëªºµ²½×´N¨¬°÷¤F.
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admirer ¡@©ó¡@2000/11/13 09:42
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My homeland is Taiwan, we are in the same country. You must have misunderstanded my idea. Really you under-valued PLA and the same time we have some negative factors that could not overcome rightnow, so I said your trend is dangerous. That is all,I cant say more.
By the way, why you are so hostile to me, I dislike it.
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Tsky ¡@©ó¡@2000/11/13 10:03
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¤pº§À ¡@©ó¡@2000/11/13 10:45
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To admirer
My homeland is Taiwan, we are in the same country.
????
However, my instinct still doesnt think so.
Sorry!
You must have misunderstanded my idea. Really you under-valued PLA and the same time we have some negative factors that could not overcome rightnow, so I said your trend is dangerous. That is all,I cant say more.
So, how about give me some concrete examples?
Tell me where I underestimate PLAs power?!
Provide me some convincing info.
Otherwise......
By the way, why you are so hostile to me, I dislike it.
If you want peopele being nice to you, so acting friendly!
Do not just come here and critisize without offering people some concrete info.
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ªê§À¤H ¡@©ó¡@2000/11/14 05:45
µoªí¤º®e¡G
Hope that Mr.Admirer would not upset to my points:
Many Taiwan born, raised people do not look like Taiwaneses. Instead, they look like theyre from PRC or even they look like theyre representing PRC.
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Tsky ¡@©ó¡@2000/11/14 05:57
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admirer:
Id like to know how we under-valued PLA, too. Please..
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This is a typical Taiwan rumor that I dont buy a bit.
This TFE1042, if I remember correctly, was originally developed by
Sweden and the US in early 80s. Later Sweden made up mind on developing
single-engine fighter jet, and gave up this TFE1042 for obvious underpower
reason.
If it were true that TFE1042 could be uprated for 30%, it would become
a baby with thrust/weight ratio ~ 8. No big deal huh?
Not really. If you keep the overall configuration of a jet engine intact,
the ways to increase thrust would be increase compressor/turbine efficiency,
or increase tubine inlet temperature. In fact, in mid 70s, milestone
machines like F100/F110 introduced single crystal turbine blades (which can sustain
large centrifugal force under extremely high temperature) to break that
t/w=8 ratio. But these are all beyond AIDC/CSISTs capability.
Now back to TFE1042. Basically, its a TFE731 with afterburner. Well, 731
was really an early 70s machine, and was not designed for high thrust.
Instead, its greatest merit was high reliability with moderate performance
... I simply dont believe that TFE1042 would be able to produce 9000kg
thrust as the rumor said - the Swedens were nuts? They later turned to
F404 which could barely reach that 9000kg mark. In fact, in early 80s
the US didnt have a good turbofan at 9000kg level, and that famous Israli
Lavi had to use PW1120 turbojet.
Its true that TFE1042 has FADEC - digital engine control. But, only if the
machine can mechanically produce 9000kg a/b thrust, otherwise by changing
the FADEC software there is no way.
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¤pº§À ¡@©ó¡@2000/11/16 10:24
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This is a typical Taiwan rumor that I dont buy a bit.
he he he
This TFE1042, if I remember correctly, was originally developed by
Sweden and the US in early 80s.
Correct!
Later Sweden made up mind on developing
single-engine fighter jet, and gave up this TFE1042 for obvious underpower
reason.
No, you are completely wrong!
In 80s,according to the joint analysis from Garrett and Volve,the thrust of TFE-1042-7 could be achieved up to 8300lb. Therefore, the maximum thrust of two engine would be 16600lb where the one of F404 was 16000lb.
There are two reasons causing Sweden abandoning TFE-1042 as following,
1.TFE1042 was a completely new system, and F404 was the developed one. The risk and the cost were all favorable to F404.
2.Since there was no formal deplomatic relationship between Taiwan and Sweden, it was very politically sensitive for Sweden.
If it were true that TFE1042 could be uprated for 30%, it would become
a baby with thrust/weight ratio ~ 8. No big deal huh?
Calm down, man!
The T/W ratio of TFE-1042-70 was 7.01 before improvement.
The maximum trust is 9460 lb. Therefore the T/W ratio will be 7.41 at 10000lb thrust.
Not really. If you keep the overall configuration of a jet engine intact,
the ways to increase thrust would be increase compressor/turbine efficiency,
or increase tubine inlet temperature.
Ha Ha Ha, very interesting!
Those improvements are not the key factors to increase the thrust. They are the major factors,especially inlet turbine temp., for enhancing the thermal effeciency.
The key factors to increase the thrust are the intake volume (or intake efficiency) and compression ratio.
In fact, in mid 70s, milestone
machines like F100/F110 introduced single crystal turbine blades (which can sustain
large centrifugal force under extremely high temperature) to break that
t/w=8 ratio. But these are all beyond AIDC/CSISTs capability.
Partially right!
Indeed, the material capibility of AIDC was not great.
Therefore, some parts were imported from U.S.
However, with the assitance form Garette, the manufacturing tech for hollow-core-blade was successufuly
transferred. Corrosponding thermal barrier coating like aluminide coating and alseal were developed by AIDC with the assistance from Garett.
Now back to TFE1042. Basically, its a TFE731 with afterburner. Well, 731
was really an early 70s machine, and was not designed for high thrust.
You are right. But only partially.
Check my reply above.
Instead, its greatest merit was high reliability with moderate performance
Yes.
... I simply dont believe that TFE1042 would be able to produce 9000kg
thrust as the rumor said
Actually, it is not TFE-1042. hehehe
- the Swedens were nuts? They later turned to
F404 which could barely reach that 9000kg mark.
My reply above.
In fact, in early 80s
the US didnt have a good turbofan at 9000kg level, and that famous Israli
Lavi had to use PW1120 turbojet.
Its true that TFE1042 has FADEC - digital engine control. But, only if the
machine can mechanically produce 9000kg a/b thrust, otherwise by changing
the FADEC software there is no way.
In fact, according to the AIDC engineer, the increase of thrust is mainly by increase the intake volume with corrosponding modification of control software.
(ref. IDFªº¬ãµo¬G¨Æ, p.141)
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¥Õ¶³ ¡@©ó¡@2000/11/16 11:08
µoªí¤º®e¡G
>>There are two reasons causing Sweden abandoning TFE-1042 as following,
1.TFE1042 was a completely new system, and F404 was the developed one. The risk and the cost were all
favorable to F404.<<
I believe its because sweden favored single-engine scheme, to reduce
cost, maintenance, etc. Sweden RM8 is as new a system as TFE1042
was.
>>Those improvements are not the key factors to increase the thrust. They are the major factors,especially
inlet turbine temp., for enhancing the thermal effeciency.
The key factors to increase the thrust are the intake volume (or intake efficiency) and compression ratio.<<
Come on, I hate to say that, but perhaps I do know a little bit (maybe more)about
jet engines:-) Now back to business, did I say keep configuration
intact as presumption, as your story only changing control
software suggested?
Changing intake volume? That means you need to literally redesign
the whole thing! To increase compression ratio is philosophically
a right idea, but how? You need to redesign your compression stage, which
is a big deal and not an easy deal considering 731 is a very mature
design. Actually, itd be much easier if you simply just
add more stages but thats out of picture because you need to modify
IDFs structure.
hollow-core-blade is nothing difficult. But thats off the topic.
>>The T/W ratio of TFE-1042-70 was 7.01 before improvement.
The maximum trust is 9460 lb. Therefore the T/W ratio will be 7.41 at 10000lb thrust. <<
Now again, these are contradictory numbers. The improvement was said
as 30%. I dont have numbers handy. But, obviously this improvement
causes additional weight, otherwise, the t/w ratio would be >9 (quote
your t/w=7 before uprate).
If all these numbers are true, again they point to major engine re-design (which
I believe is beyond the capability of Taiwan).
>>In fact, according to the AIDC engineer, the increase of thrust is mainly by increase the intake volume
with corrosponding modification of control software.<<
Thats in the book? Past tense or future tense? Accomplished or
to be accomplished?
BTW, my appology, I did read one thing wrong - its not 9000kg.
But my comments (biased of course:-) still stand.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
¤pº§À ¡@©ó¡@2000/11/16 12:08
µoªí¤º®e¡G
I believe its because sweden favored single-engine scheme, to reduce
cost, maintenance, etc. Sweden RM8 is as new a system as TFE1042
was.
1. It should be RM12.
2. RM12 is a modified F404,which is also named as F404J.
It is modified from a developed higher power powerplant with AB, unlike TFE731,which is w/o AB.
The key factors to increase the thrust are the intake volume (or intake efficiency) and compression ratio.<<
Come on, I hate to say that, but perhaps I do know a little bit (maybe more)about
jet engines:-)
Sound quite arrogant.Man.
Now back to business, did I say keep configuration
intact as presumption, as your story only changing control
software suggested?
Changing intake volume? That means you need to literally redesign
the whole thing!
Ha Ha Ha! Nope!
How about intake efficiency?
To increase compression ratio is philosophically
a right idea, but how? You need to redesign your compression stage, which
is a big deal and not an easy deal considering 731 is a very mature
design. Actually, itd be much easier if you simply just
add more stages but thats out of picture because you need to modify
IDFs structure.
Give you a hint. Check the difference between TFE1042-7 and TFE1042-70.
hollow-core-blade is nothing difficult. But thats off the topic.
Concept is easy.
Practical work isnt.
>>The T/W ratio of TFE-1042-70 was 7.01 before improvement.
The maximum trust is 9460 lb. Therefore the T/W ratio will be 7.41 at 10000lb thrust. <<
Now again, these are contradictory numbers. The improvement was said
as 30%.
I dont have numbers handy. But, obviously this improvement
causes additional weight, otherwise, the t/w ratio would be >9 (quote
your t/w=7 before uprate).
Very reasonable question.
Let me check. So far, your point is wright.
However, I still beleve 10000lb thrust.
If all these numbers are true, again they point to major engine re-design (which
I believe is beyond the capability of Taiwan).
I found some interesting infomation. Let me do more study.
I will give you some reply ASAP.
>>In fact, according to the AIDC engineer, the increase of thrust is mainly by increase the intake volume
with corrosponding modification of control software.<<
Thats in the book? Past tense or future tense? Accomplished or
to be accomplished?
Yes, past tense.
The book was published for 3yrs.
BTW, my appology, I did read one thing wrong - its not 9000kg.
But my comments (biased of course:-) still stand
No problem.