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¥»´Á¥Xª©ªº¸gÀپǤH¡]The Economist¡A2002¦~¤»¤ë15¤é¡^¦³±MÃD±´°Q·í«e¤¤°ê¸gÀÙ±¡¶Õ¡]A survey of China¡AJune 15th 2002¡A¦@­p16­¶¡^¡C¨ä¤¤²Ä¤K¡B¤E¡B¤Qµ¥¤T­¶¬O´y­z·í«e¤¤°êª÷¿ÄÅé¨t°ÝÃD¡C

¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡A¤¤°ê©x¤è¤½§Gªº°ê¦³»È¦æ§b±b²v¬°25%¡C¦ý¬O®Ú¾Ú¸gÀپǪÌNicholas Lardyªº¦ô­p¡A»È¦æÅé¨tªº§b±b²vÀ³¸Ó¦b50%¥ª¥k¡C³B²z³o¨Ç§b±b·|Åý¤¤°ê¬F©²ªº°]¬F°ÝÃD§ó¥[´c¤Æ¡C

¸gÀپǤH¤Þ­z¸gÀپǪÌNicholas Lardyªº¸Ü¡G¦pªG¤¤°ê¬F©²ªº­t¶ÅÄ~Äòºû«ù¥Ø«eªº³W¼Ò¡A¤¤°ê§Y±N¦A¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{©M«Xù´µ¦b1998¦~¬Û¦Pªº¶Å°È¦M¾÷¡C¯÷ºK¸ô³¡¤À¤å¦r¦p¤U¡A¦³¿³½ìªºÅªªÌ½Ð¦Û¦æ¾\Ū¥þ¤å¡]»P¸Ó±M¿è¡^¡G
¡§The government says its debt-to-GDP ratio is a very manageable 16 percent. In fact if hidden liabilities, including NPLS¡]§b±b¡^, pension of commitments and bonds ¡]¬F©²¤½¶Å¡^issued to capitalize the asset-management companies are taken into account, the debt-to-GDP ratio is more like 100%¡¨.¡]­«ÂI¨Ó¤F¡^¡¨If you continue the current performance¡K¡Kthe system is going to crash in seven to eight years. You are heading towards a situation like Russia in 1998 with a default on the domestic bond market¡¨, says Mr. Lardy.


NO:109_1
TT ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/16 18:38
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NO:109_2
Simon ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/16 22:40
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

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NO:109_3
HitCat ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/16 23:47
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

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NO:109_4
ŪŪ¼Ö ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/16 23:53
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

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NO:109_5
HitCat ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/16 23:58
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

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§Aªºµo¨¥¯A¤Î¤T­Ó½×ÃÒ¡A¥i§_½Ð§A¸Ô²Ó»¡©ú¡G
²Ä¤@¡A¥i§_½Ð§A»¡©ú¬°¦ó¥xÆW¸êª÷ª`¤J¤¤°ê¡A·|©ì©µ¤¤°ê¶Å°È¦M¾÷ªºÃzµo¡H

²Ä¤G¡A§A©Ò¿×¡u¥xÆW¦Û´Ý¥H´©¤¤°ê³o­Ó­±¦V¡v¡A¨ãÅ骺¸gÀÙ¾÷¨î¨ì©³¬°¦ó¡H

²Ä¤T¡A¥i§_Á|¥X¨ãÅ骺²Î­p¼Æ¦r¡A»¡©ú¥xÆWªº¸êª÷¬y¤J¹ï¤¤°ê¬F©²´î»´¶Å°È°ÝÃD¦³¦óºØ§U¯q¡H


NO:109_6
HitCat ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/16 23:59
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

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NO:109_7
ŪŪ¼Ö ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/17 00:04
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

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NO:109_8
ŪŪ¼Ö ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/17 01:27
ºCºC¶KµÛ¨Ó³á¡ã¡ã¡ãCCC

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NO:109_9
ŪŪ¼Ö ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/17 01:31
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¦p¦P¥H©¹¡A§ÚÁÙ¬Oµ¥«ÝµÛ§Aªº½×ÃÒ¡C


NO:109_15
ŪŪ¼Ö ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/18 03:40
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

HitCat¤j­ô,
ÁÙ¬O¨º¥yOK¡I
¡@¨Æ¹ê¤W¤p§Ì¦b§äªº¸ê®Æ¬O¤¤°êªñ¦~¨Ó¸êª÷­É¶U¶i¥Xª¬ªpªº¸ê®Æ³ø¾É~~~

¦pªG¤p§ÌÂà¶KÅý¤j­ôı±o¤£µÎªA¡A¨º¦³ÂI¥i±¤ªº¬O¤p§Ìªº¸ê®Æ³£¬Oºô¸ô©Ò§ä¨ìªº¡I¨Ã«D¬O¤p§Ì¿Ë¦Û­pºâªº¡I
¡@¦pªG³o¼Ë¤j­ôªº±i±Ð±Â¤]­n·í¤p§Ì¡A¨º¤p§Ì¥i¯à­n¥ý½}§K³o¦ì±i±Ð±Â¤F¡I(¤p§Ì¤]¬Û·í¦³¦Û«H±i±Ð±Âªº¤å³¹¤º®e¨Ã«D¬O¦Û¤v¿Ë¦Û­pºâ©Ò¼gªº¡^¡ã¡ã¡ãCCC ¡@

¡@¤p§Ì©Ò¶K¤å³¹¡A¤]½Ð¤j­ô«ü¬Ý¨ä¤å³¹¤¤ªº¼Æ¾Ú¸ê®Æ§Y¥i¡A·íµM§ó¥]§t¤j­ô´L·qªº±i±Ð±Â¤å³¹¤º®eªº¸ê®Æ¡I

¡@PS.°O±o¤p§Ì¦b¥|­Ó¤ë«e´¿¬Ý¹L¤j­ô©Ò­n¸ê®Æ¡ã¡ã¡ã¤´§ä´M¤¤¡ã¡ã¡ã·í®É¥¼¦sÀÉ¡ã¡ã¡ã½Ð¦Aµyµy¡ã¡ã¡ã


NO:109_16
CW ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/18 03:43
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

to Hitcat

I do not know what question I asked as you mentioned before.

In the previous column, I actually tried to answer "Is there any
¡¨¸gÀÙµo®i·¥­­½×" in economics?" asked by SIRUS.

My reponse is to use "Growth theory" or "Solow-Swan mode" to answer that
question.


NO:109_17
CW ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/18 03:46
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

Sorry the question is asked by SIRIUS.

NO:109_18
ŪŪ¼Ö ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/18 03:47
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

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NO:109_19
ŪŪ¼Ö ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/18 04:01
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¡i¦hºû·s»DªÀ¡j¤¤°ê¥þ°ê¬F¨ó¡B¤H¤j·|ij±N¤À§O©ó3¤é©M 5¤é¶}¹õ¡A»G±Ñ°ÝÃD±N¦A«×¦¨¬°»P·|¥NªíÃöª`µJÂI¡C¥Ñ¤¤°ê¬ì¾Ç°|©M²MµØ¤j¾ÇÁp¦X³Ð¿ìªº¤¤°ê°ê±¡¬ã¨s¤¤¤ß³Ì·sµoªí³ø§iºÙ¡A¹L¥h¤T¦~¡A¤½Àç¾÷ºc»G±Ñ³y¦¨ªº¸gÀÙ·l¥¢°ª¹F¤@¸U¤T¤d»õ¤¸¤H¥Á¹ô¡C

Ä«ªG¤é³ø2¤é³ø¾É»¡¡A¤¤°ê©x­ûªº»G±Ñ°ÝÃD¤@ª½¬O¤H¤j¡B¬F¨ó·|ijªº¼öªù¸ÜÃD¡A¦ý¤¤°ê°ê±¡¬ã¨s¤¤¤ß¥D¥ô­J¾b¿û±Ð±Â»{¬°¡A¹ï©ó¥Ø«e¤j¶qªº¨t²Î©Ê»G±Ñ¨Ó»¡¡A¡u©x­ûªº­Ó¤H»G±Ñ¹ê»Ú¤W¤E¤û¤@¤ò¡v¡C¥L©Ò»¡ªº¨t²Î©Ê»G±Ñ¡A¬O«ü¦P¤@¦æ·~©Î¦P¤@©Ê½è¤u§@¤¤¥¢Â¾¡B¤£­t³d¥ô©Ò²£¥Íªº¶°Åé¸gÀÙ·l¥¢©Î³g¦Ã¦æ¬°¡C

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¤µ¦~¥|¤Q¤E·³ªº­J¾b¿û¬O¤¤°êµÛ¦Wªº¸gÀپǮa¡A¤@¤E¤K¤­¦~¥[¤J¤¤°ê¬ì¾Ç°|°ê±¡¬ã¨s¤p²Õ¡C¤G¡³¡³¡³¦~¤@¤ë¡A­J¾b¿û¥X¥ô¤¤¬ì°|©M²MµØ¤j¾ÇÁp¦X³Ð¿ìªº°ê±¡¬ã¨s¤¤¤ß¥D¥ô¡A±q¨Æ¤½¦@¬Fµ¦»Pµo®i¬ã¨s¡A¨Ã½s¿è¥Xª©¡m¤¤°ê°ê±¡¤ÀªR»P¬ã¨s³ø§i¡n¡A¬°°ª¼h´£¨Ñ¨Mµ¦°Ñ¦Ò¡C

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Ä«ªG¤é³ø2¤é³ø¾É»¡¡A¤¤°ê©x­ûªº»G±Ñ°ÝÃD¤@ª½¬O¤H¤j¡B¬F¨ó·|ijªº¼öªù¸ÜÃD¡A¦ý¤¤°ê°ê±¡¬ã¨s¤¤¤ß¥D¥ô­J¾b¿û±Ð±Â»{¬°¡A¹ï©ó¥Ø«e¤j¶qªº¨t²Î©Ê»G±Ñ¨Ó»¡¡A¡u©x­ûªº­Ó¤H»G±Ñ¹ê»Ú¤W¤E¤û¤@¤ò¡v¡C¥L©Ò»¡ªº¨t²Î©Ê»G±Ñ¡A¬O«ü¦P¤@¦æ·~©Î¦P¤@©Ê½è%A


NO:109_21
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NO:109_22
ŪŪ¼Ö ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/18 04:04
¥ý¨Ó¦õÃÒ¸ê®Æ...CCC

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¡@¡@¤¤°ê«°¥«³Ò°Ê¥¢·~²v¦­´N¶W¹L¤F27¢H¡A»¡¹A§ø¡Cªü®Ú§Êªº¥¢·~²v¡AÁÙ¨S¦³³o麽°ª¡A¬°¤°麽¥¦´N¤w¸g¤Ñ¤U¤j¶Ã¤F¡A¦Ó¤¤°êÁÙ¯àºû«ùí©w©O¡H³o´N¯A¤Î¨ì¤@­Ó­«­nªº¯µ±K¤F¡Cªü®Ú§Êªº¤u¤H¦³¦Û¤vªº±j¤j¤u·|¡A°êÀç¥ø·~ªºÂ¾¤u¡B¥þ°êªº±Ð­û¡B¨îÃÄ·~ªºÂ¾¤u¡B¹q·~¾¤u©M¹A·~¤u¤H³£¦³¦Û¤vªº¤u·|¡C¦b³o¨Ç¦æ·~¤u·|¤§¤W¤S¦³¤@­Ó±j¤jªº¥þ°êÁ`¤u·|¡C1997¦~¥þ°ê¤j¤¤¤p«°¥«ªº¤u¤H¤@°_¦æ°Ê°_¨Ó¡A³sÄò´X­Ó¬P´ÁÄd°ô¤½¸ô¡B¾ô±ç¡A¥]³ò¤F¬F©²ªº¤j¼Ó¡A­n¨D¤u§@¡B­n¨D«O»ÙªÀ·|ºÖ§Q¡C2001¦~¡A¨â¦~¤¤¶¡¡A²Ä¤»¦¸¥þ°êÁ`½}¤u¤S¶}©l¤F¡A¨Æ·~¤u¤HÄd°ô¤F¥_³¡ªº©Ò¦³¤½¸ô¡A¤j¤¤¤p¾Ç¥þ³¡°±½Ò¡A¥d¨®¥q¾÷¤£¶}¨®¡A¦aÅK¡B¤½¦@¨T¨®©M¹q¨®¤]³£°±¤F¡A¬F©²¾÷Ãö¾­û¤]¤£¥Î¤W¯Z¤F¡A³s¥Á¯èªº¯Z¾÷³£¨ú®ø¤F­¸¦æ¡Aĵ¹î¨ì¬O¨S¦³½}¤u¡A¥i¬O¥L­Ì¤£Ä@·N¥h°õ¦æ¬F©²ªº«ü¥O¥hÂíÀ£½}¤u¡C
¡@¡@°²¦p³o¨Ç¤u¤H¨S¦³¦Û¤vªº²Õ´¡A¤£´±±Ä¨ú¦æ°Ê¡C¥u­n¬F©²µ¹ÂI¿ú¡A¥´µo¦^¥h´N¦Ñ¦Ñ¹ê¹ê¦aµ¥µÛ¡A¨º麽ªü®Ú§Êªº¸gÀÙ¦M¾÷¤]´N¤£·|§Î¦¨¨º麽¤jªºÀ£¤O¡C¥h¦~¦~©³¡A´«¤F5­ÓÁ`²Î¡C±q´X¦~«e¶}©l¡Aªü®Ú§Ê°ê¤º´N¦³¤H¨Ó§åµû©Ò¿×·s¦Û¥Ñ¥D¸q¸gÀÙ¡A²{¦bªº³o­ÓÁ`²Î¤w¸g¥¿¦¡ªí¥Ü¡Gªü®Ú§Êªº¸gÀÙ¦M¾÷¬O¥Ñ©óªö¯Ç¤F·s¦Û¥Ñ¥D¸q¸gÀÙ¼Ò¦¡©Ò³y¦¨ªº¡A³oºØ¸gÀÙ¼Ò¦¡´N¬O§â¥«³õ¸gÀÙ©ñ¨ì¦Ü°ªµL¤Wªº¦a¦ì¡A¨ú®ø¬F©²ªº¤@¤ÁºÞ²z¸gÀÙªº¥\¯à¡A§¹¥þ¦Û¥Ñ©ñ¥ô¡A¥ÑÄvª§¨M©w¤@¤Á¡A¨º麽¬°¤F´£°ªªü®Ú§Ê¦b°ê¥~ªºÄvª§¯à¤O¡A¤]¬°¤F§l¤Þ¥~¸ê¡A¤]¥u¦nÀ£§C¤u¤Hªº¤u¸ê¡A¨ú®ø¬Y¨ÇºÖ§Q¡Aµ²ªG¥Í²£¤W¥h¤F¡A¦ý¬O¤H¥Á«o¤ñ¹L¥h§ó½a¤F¡A²{¦b¥L­Ì¨M©w­n©ñ±ó³o­Ó¨î«×¡C¤¤°ê¨ã¦³ªü®Ú§Ê¸gÀÙ©Ò¦³ªº¹ú¯f¡A¦P®É¤S¨S¦³ªü®Ú§Ê¨ººØªÀ·|ºÖ§Q¡A¸û°ªªº¤u¸ê¡A¤ñ¤è¤u¤H¥¢·~¡A¨ºªü®Ú§ÊÁÙ¥i¥H§K¶O¡AÁÙ¦³¤½¶OÂåÀø¡A³o¦b¤¤°ê¤w¸g¨S¦³¤F¡C¤£¦Pªº´N¬O¤¤°ê¨S¦³¥Á¥D©M¦Û¥Ñ¡A©Ò¦³¤@¤Á°ÝÃD¡B¤@¤Á³Â·Ð³£¥i¥H±»»\°_¨Ó¡A¹ê¦b¤£¦æ©O¡H¹G±o«æ´N°Ê¥ÎÂíÀ£¤â¬q¡C¦ý¬O¸gÀÙ¦³°ÝÃD¡A´N¶H¤H¥Í¯f¤@¼Ë¡A§A¥i¥H©ìµÛ¤£ªv¡A¦ý¬O¨º¶ô¯f²¦³º¬O¯f¡A¦­±ß¥²©w­nµo§@¡A¨º¬O¸ú¤£±¼ªº¡C


NO:109_29
ŪŪ¼Ö ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/18 05:13
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

¤W§ó¥¿
ªñ¨Ó¤¤°ê¦V¤é¥»µL®§­É¶Uª÷ÃB,¦ü¥G¦³µL©Mºû«ù¤¤°ê¬FÅv¤£­P±Y¸Ñ¦³Ãö§r¡H¡I

NO:109_30
HitCat ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/18 06:14
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

To CW

«Ü¹ï¤£°_¡A§Ú²´ªá¬Ý¿ù¤F¡C¨º­Ó°ÝÃDªº½T¬OSirus´£¥Xªº¡A¤£¬O§A´£¥Xªº¡C

±q§Aªº¦^µª¡A§Ú¬Û«H§A¤@©wŪ¹L¸gÀÙ¦¨ªø²z½×¤è­±ªº®ÑÄy¡C¨Ò¦pBARRO»PSALI-I-MARTINªº±Ð¬ì®Ñ¡C§Ú­Ë¬O¦³­Óºc·Q¡C¦pªG­nÅý¨º¤@Äæªº°Q½×§ó¨ãÅé¥B¨¥¤§¦³ª«¡A´N¥i¥H±q¸gÀÙµo®i²z½×ªº¨¤«×¤~±´¯Á³o­Ó°ÝÃD¡C°£¤F§A´£¹LªºSolow-Swan model¤§¥~¡AÁÙ¦³Ramsey model¡Aendogenous models»Pgrowth accounting¤]³£¬Û·í¦³½ì¡C¦³¨S¦³¥i¯à³Â·Ð§A¸òºô¤Í¤¶²Ð³o¨Ç²z½×¼Ò«¬¡A¨Ã¥Î³o¨Ç¼Ò«¬¨ÓÀËÅç±i©¾¿Ñ©Ò´£¥Xªº©RÃD¡C

´N§Ú©Òª¾¡A±i©¾¿Ñªº¬Ýªk¨Ã«D¥L©Ò­ì³Ð¡C¥Lªº¬Ýªk·½¦Û¸gÀپǮaAlwyn Young©Òµoªíªº¤å³¹¡C¥Lªº¹êÃÒ¬ã¨sµo²{¨È¬w·s¿³¤u·~°ê®aªº¸gÀÙ¦¨ªø¡A³z¹Lgrowth accountingªº¤ÀªR¡A¥u­n¬O¨Ó¦Û¸ê¥»»P³Ò°Ê¤O§ë¤Jªº¼W¥[¡A¦Ó¤£¬O§Þ³Nªº¶i¨B¡C¦pªG¥Í²£¨ç¼Æ¨S¦³ÅܰʡA¸ê¥»»P³Ò°Ê¤O§ë¤Jªº¼W¥[·|­±Á{Ãä»Ú¥Í²£¤O»¼´îªk«h¡A©Ò¥H¸gÀÙ¦¨ªø²×·|¦³°±º¢ªº¤@¤Ñ¡C¸gÀپǪÌKrugman¦b1994¦~±N¸Ó·Qªk¼g¦¨¤å³¹§ë¦bforeign affairs¤W¡A¨Ã¹w´ú¨È¬w±N­±Á{¸gÀÙ¦¨ªø´î½w¡C¤§«á1997¦~¨È¬wª÷¿Ä¦M¾÷µo¥Í¡A³o­ÓÁ¿ªk´¿¸g¦b´CÅé¤W­·¥ú¤@®É¡C


NO:109_31
ŪŪ¼Ö ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/18 07:40
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

¤§«á1997¦~¨È¬wª÷¿Ä¦M¾÷µo¥Í¡A³o­ÓÁ¿ªk´¿¸g¦b´CÅé¤W­·¥ú¤@®É¡C

AA>>«¢«¢«¢¡ã¡ã¡ã
±ß¤W¦A¨Óª±¡I


NO:109_32
²M¯Üºñ·N ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/18 14:32
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

ŪŪ¼Ö¡G

§A¦¬¶°¸ê®Æªº¥\¤Òªº½T°µªº¤£¿ù¡A¤£¹L¡A¯à¤£¯à½Ð§A®i²{¤@¤U¾ã²zª¦²¨¸ê®Æªº¥\¤Ò¡A¥Î¦Û¤vªº¸Ü§â§Aªº·N«ä»¡²M·¡¡C¥H¤WÂà¶K¡A­Ë¬O¥i¥H©ñ¦b¤å³¹«áªº°Ñ¦Ò¸ê®Æ¡C

§Ú¬Ý§A¨S¦³¬ÝÀ´HitCatªº·N«ä¡C¥L­nªº¬O½×ÃÒ¡A¤£¥u¬Oµ²½×¡C

§A»¡¡A1998¤¤°êÀ³¸Ó´N«±¤F¡A§A­n»¡©ú¦ó¥H¬O1998¡H§Aªº¸ê®Æ¤£¯à»¡©ú³o­Ó®É¶¡ÂI¡C


NO:109_33
CW ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/20 03:31
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

to HitCat:

Based on what you were saying, I don't think the argument of ±i©¾¿Ñ is very
meaningful becasue: 1) what evidence (empirical studies) can support his
argument, 2) how does he (even for economists) know under what kind of
conditions that a country has reached a limit (steady state).

So I think the more important thing is that trying to find out does Taiwan use technology more efficient (or technological change) and does Taiwanese whole envrionment (including legal system, democracy..) improve in the past 5-10
years (both qualitative and quantitative evidences). If we do not improve these two conditions, we are in big trouble.

Although I know some empirical studies (including Krugman's) show that Taiwanes
TFP does not change that much.

>¦³¨S¦³¥i¯à³Â·Ð§A¸òºô¤Í¤¶²Ð³o¨Ç²z½×¼Ò«¬¡A¨Ã¥Î³o¨Ç¼Ò«¬¨ÓÀËÅç±i©¾¿Ñ©Ò´£¥Xªº©RÃD¡C

These are very mathematics. If I just describe it without using maths or pictures, I do not know how many people can undersatnd it. When I wrote the
basic ideas about growth theory, I wonder whether it is clear to most people
(ie I skip all graphs and maths). Besides, I have no time for that, but if some
people mention some arguments/events relevant with these theories, I am happy to
introduce them. (maybe you could introduce them)



NO:109_34
ŪŪ¼Ö ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/20 04:48
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

§Ú¬Ý§A¨S¦³¬ÝÀ´HitCatªº·N«ä¡C¥L­nªº¬O½×ÃÒ¡A¤£¥u¬Oµ²½×¡C

AA>>©¯¦n¦³Â¶¦^¨Ó³o~~~CCC
­n¤p§Ì½×ÃÒ¨ºÁÙ¤£Â²³æ¡G¡C¡C¡C¢Ñ¢Ñ¢Ñ
¢°¢¸¢¸¢¸¦~®É¡A¬Û«H¤j®a³£ÁÙ°O±o¬O¥xÆWÁ`²Î¤j¿ïªº¨º¤@¦~¡A
½Ð»Õ¤U§ä§ä©Î¦^¾Ð¤@¤U¡A
¦b¢°¢¸¢¸¢·¦~¤¤¶}©l¦U²Î´C©M©Ò¿×ªº¸gÀپǪ̬O¦p¦ó¤ÞÃÒ¦b¢°¢¸¢¸¢¸¦~¤¤¶}©l¥xÆW¶×µo¥Í¸gÀÙ®£·W»È¦æÀ½§I¨Æ¥óªº²z¥Ñªº¡ã¡ã¡ã
¦P²z¡A¢°¢¸¢¸¢·¦~¥xÆW°]¬F¸gÀÙ»P¤¤°ê°]¬F¸gÀÙ¤¬°µ¤ñ¸û¡A¨º¤¤°ê¬O¤£¬O¦b¢°¢¸¢¸¢·¦~¨º¦~´N¸Ó¯}²£¤`°ê¤F¡I

PS.
¦]¬°¤£¯à¤Þ¸g½×ÂI¡]·ÓHITCAT¥u­ã¦Û¤v©ñ¤õ¤£­ã§O¤HÂI¿Oªº¼Ð·Ç¡^¡C¡C¡C
¡]©êºp¤£°µ¥ô¦ó¤Þ­z¸ê®Æ¼Æ¾Ú¡C¡C¡C­n¸ê®Æ¦Û¤v§ä...CCC¡^


NO:109_35
ŪŪ¼Ö ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/20 04:51
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

¯u©êºp¡ã¡ã¡ã
­ì¥»·Q§â¾ã­Ó·í®É¤¤°ê°]¸gª¬ªp¤@¨B¤@¨B¶Kºc¿v¥X¨Óªºµ¹¦U¦ìºCºCÅé·|ªº¡ã¡ã¡ã
¬Ý¨Ó¤£¥Î¤F¡ã¡ã¡ã

PS.
¨ì©³¬O½Ö¬Ý¤£À´§r¡I¡C¡C¡CCCC


NO:109_36
HitCat ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/20 06:41
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

To CW
Thanks for your reply. I almost give up writing any more discussion in this column since the response was so miserable. Later, I may try to introduce these growth models to the discussion here. Please give me your opinions if you have time.

NO:109_37
HitCat ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/20 06:47
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

to ŪŪ¼Ö

ÁÂÁ§AÄ~Äò¶K¤å¡C³o¼Ë¦n¤F¡A§A°®¯Ü¿ï¤@½g§A¤ñ¸ûÃÙ¦Pªº¤å³¹¡AµM«á§Ú­Ì¨Ó¤@°_°Q½×¡C§Úı±o¼B»«¶­¨º½g¤å³¹¥i¥H¦Ò¼{¡C§Ú»{¬°¥Lªºµ²½×¥¿½T¡A¦ý¬O±À½×¦³°ÝÃD¡A¥¿¦n¥i¥H·í§@¼Ë¥Ü½d±Ð§÷¡C§Aı±o©O¡H


NO:109_38
Matrix ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/20 19:41
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

¶}Äæªº¤]¥uÂà¸ü The Economist ªº³¡¤À¤å³¹¡A¨S¬Ý¨ì¤°»ò¦Û¤vªº½×ÃÒ! ­Ë¬O¹³«ü¾É±Ð±Â¦b«ü¾É¤@¸s¬ã¨s¥Í¤@¼Ë¡C

§Ú¨ì¯u·Q·í­Ó¾Ç¥Í¡Aµê¤ß¨ü±Ð³á!


NO:109_39
RIETI ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/21 00:01
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

test

NO:109_40
GARTH62 ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/22 02:34
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

¨þ¨þ¨þ¡ã¡ã¡ã
¤¤°ê¥Ø«e¤w¸g¬O¥H¶Å¾i¶Å¤F¡I¡ã¡ã¡ã¦ó¶·¦Aµ¥¢¶¡C¢·¦~¡I¡C¡C¡C¨þ
Ū¥S,
À°¥S§Ì§ä­Ó³Â·Ð¡I
¡@¡@¬D¾Ô¶}Äæªº¥S¥x~~~

NO:109_41
¸ô¤H ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/22 02:56
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

¬Ý¤£À´¶}Äæªºªº·N«ä?? ´N¬O.."¦³¿³½ìªºÅªªÌ½Ð¦Û¦æ¾\Ū¥þ¤å"???????

NO:109_42
HitCat ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/22 06:50
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

To Garth62»P¸ô¤H

Åwªï¥[¤J°Q½×¡C


NO:109_43
thinker ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/22 08:14
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

to Hitcat and CW

As a transitional economy, China is inevitably facing serious challenges in future. However, you have underestimated the endurance of people in difficult times. To cite a simple example, India is undoubtedly poorer than China, but the country has not yet collapsed so far. Bangladesh and Pakistan are even poorer than India and both countries still survive. It may be an exaggeration to say that China could catch up with Japan or United States in 2030 or 2050.
But it is not unfair to say that its economic situation is much better than India, Pakistan and Bangladesh.

The bottomline is that China commands considerable natural resources. If not for the huge population, it is among the top producers in the world for Petroleum, coal, wheat, rice, cotton and steel. As long as these natural resources exist, the country could survive on a subsistance basis.

Besides, investment from Taiwan does not contribute to a very large share of China's economy. Its current GDP is around 1100 billion per year(norminal exchange rate method). By contrast, total Taiwan investment in the past 10 years is 50 billion at maximum. 70% of fiscal revnues of central government in China comes from 500 largest SOE, not all of them losing money as you would otherwise imagine. China Telecom. Unicom, Sino-petroleum, State Power Corporation, COSCO, CITIC, etc are pumping huge profits into national economy. As long as these real economic entitities exist, the country could survive extreme harsh situations. Do you konw the combined installed capacity of hydropower generators, the annual output of petroleum, coal and food grains? These are not virtual economy and will not disappear overnight.

Of course, these are only bottomline. The real challenge is to develop high value-added industry. In this area, Taiwan made a good start, but is fighting a uphill battle, which can be reflected by the stagnation of GDP at 13,000 per capital in past ten years.


NO:109_44
thinker ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/22 08:32
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

To Hitcat and CW

I think economic affairs is much more complicated than any theoretical models.

For example, many people predict that Japanese economy is in trouble because of the property bubble. However, Japanese are still as rich as before, because money invested in property will find its way in the pockets in other Japanese. As a whole, the country loses nothing, except for speculators and Banks lending to speculators.

In China, banks are losing money. But the money supports the life of workers who will ultimately consume money in the market. Even corrupt officials will use the money to buy houses and finance private investment. As a whole, the national economy is still functioning, only banks are suffering. The central government is taking serious measures to tackle bad loan problems. If GDP grows at a high speed, the increased fiscal revenues will help scale down the debt to GDP ratio. In Japan the ratio is 150%. In Italy, the ratio is 130%. I think only time can cure the problem. Before 1980s, China had zero foreign debt, zero domestic debt and free medical and education. But quality of life was much poorer than today's.

Taiwan and South Korean are famous for corruption during the period of economic take-off. However, it does not prevent the economic development. I am not advacating corruption, but only stress that economic affairs are pretty tricky.

For example, corrupt officials may have more incentives to support the development of private companies than clean officials, because if all companies go bust, corrupt officials will have no chance of corruption.


NO:109_45
NOBODY ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/22 20:26
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

TO thinker:

All your arguments are conjectures, can you provide any empirical evidences?
Otherwise, people can always come up with opposite conclusions with different
assumptions. For example, if Taiwan' government were not as corrupt as it was,
then its ecnomic growth rate could have been doubled. I think it is ridiculous to suggest that corruption can advance economies. If your logic is correct, then there should be no legal system in any country so that the economy can continue to improve.

Additionally, I do not know how you come up with the conclusion that
Taiwan's economy stagnated for the past ten years. If your conclusion is correct, then Taiwn has become the third largest IT product manufacturing country for nothing. Do you measure GDP per capita in US Dollars or what?

It is possible that China can become an ecnomic power as strong as the US,
but what is the probability. Anything is possible. It is possible that China will collapse overnight. But the chance certainly is very slim.

Once I talked to several bankers in Taiwan about the bad loans ratio of China's banks. I got a loud laugh when I said that the bad loans ratio was about 28%,
since that was what the Taiwanese newspaper kept telling us. According to them,
the ratio is at least 50% if measured in terms of international standards.

I do not want to portrait China as a country without hope,
but I do not agree with your over-optimism. If we look at the economic development in Brasil, then China's future is not as optimistic as you think.
Brasil is a country with lots of natural resources too, and was regarded as a
rising economic entity back in the 1970 & 1980. Western coutries poured a lot of money into Brasil as they thought it was a very promising market. However Brasil has not become an advanced ecnomy after 20 years. Even worse, its economy is still very weak. One of the main reasons is corruption. Another reason was Government debts. Unfortunately China is also facing these two problems currently.

I sincerely hope China can become a prosperous country (although I resent its aggressive threat toward Taiwan), but I do have my doubt.
The main reason is that China has a population way too big. And I think China will soon reach the limit that its natural resources can support. Another reason is that China is still a country without the respect for laws. Therefore the society will be unstable and its economy can never become an advanced one. But that remains to be proved/disproved. After all, we are all conjecturing (or thinking?), are'nt we?


NO:109_46
ŪŪ¼Ö ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/22 20:32
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

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HitCat,
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NO:109_47
¤å¨© ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/22 22:33
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

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NO:109_48
thinker ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/23 02:53
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

To noboday

Thank you for your insightful analysis of the economic future of China.
There are plenty of articles about Chinese economy in World Wide Web. You can just put in "Chinese economy" in Yahoo search engine, a multitude of address will appear consequently. Therefore, I will not attempt to provide you here with empirical support.

I do not believe that China could become as prosperous as USA in the next 100 years. The probability is zero rather than slim. USA is consuming 70% of natural resources around the world. This globe simply cannot sustain a country 5 times as populous as USA to consume in the American way.

However, the future of China will not be as pessimistic as some doomsayers claim.

Firstly, this is a country with 5000 years of historical experience. Although some die-hard habits contribute to the decline of Chinese civilization over the past 200 years, government and people can still benefit tremendously from the rich historical experience in governance and development. I think that the backwardness of Africa is due to the lack of advanced civilization in the past. Even Brazil has no history to fall upon when the country is caught into crisis.
By contrast, all eastern Asian countries have learnt a lot from Mainland China culturally and politically. If Japan and tiger economies could achieve economic miracles, why couldn't China realize the same progress. To cite a simple example, if you check the history of International Olympics of physics, computers, information, mathematics and chemicals for high-school students in the past 5 years, you will find that representatives from China have occupied the top seat for five years in a row. I am not advocating racism here. But these brain competition does indicate that "Chinese are really intelligent people"(a comment by incumbent deputy secretary of defence of USA). The Russians are naive enough to declare the end of communism and accept the collapse of a huge empire. Only Chinese government could come up with the strategy of developing market economy in the disguse of socialism and thereby ensuring territory integrity. Even looking at the dispute across Taiwan Strait, only Chinese can work out a scenario where two sides conduct substantial business and politicians do not talk with each other. By constrast, middle east people could only think about new methodology of killing each other. I think Mainland China is using Taiwan as a good excuse to build up military strength to counter the threat from USA and Japan.

Secondly, the country has to pay for the transition of economic system. The banking system performs key fiscal responsibilities in the past. These bad loans are not pure bad investment. They are social welfare responsibilities owed by government to workers. Without bad loans, government has to issue new treasury bonds to sustain social welfare network. You cannot ignore the fact that government of China owns much more assets than a market economy. The sale of coal, gas, petroleum fields, power stations, railway, telecom, refinery, railway, aviation, media, ocean-going vessels, real estate could bring in substantial revenues.I foresee in the coming 20 years, many of these assets will be privatized to bail out these bad loans and pay out treasury bonds.

Finally, China at worst will develop towards the direction of India, a highly polarized society. Even so, the 300 million urban dwellers still constitute a formidable economic force. They can consume most of the country's natural resources while tap into the cheap labour of rural area. The urban economy could compete in the high value-added industry and the rural labour could kill all competitors in the labor-intensive industry.


NO:109_49
Simon ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/23 18:28
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

thinker

>>> By contrast, total Taiwan investment in the past 10 years is 50 billion at maximum.

§Aªº¼Æ¦r¸ò¨Æ¹ê¬Û®t¤Ó»·. ¹ï¸gÀÙ¬¡°Êªº¤º®e¤]©¿²¤¤F.

Investment directly remit from Taiwan to China via HK exceed US$ 70 billion
according to Taiwan Central Banks disclousure to Legislator in July 2000.

Plus more than US$ 50 bn by HK Banks in terms of credit transfer.
Plus business transaction credit/liability arrangement.
All above may exceed US$200 bn . ¤G¤d»õ¬üª÷, ®t¤£¦h¬O¤¤°êªº¥~¶×¦s©³.

What peiople said "investment" in non-financial sector, is total asset amount instead of paid-up capital or shareholders' equity.

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NO:109_50
Simon ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/23 18:29
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

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NO:109_51
thinker ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/24 00:59
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷


To Simon,

Before replying to your post, I want to stress again that I am not denying China is facing tremendous challenges including the bad loan issue. My point of view is that the country has a great chance of overcoming these challenges and will not collapse like Indonesia.

It is a debatable issue which side of the Taiwan Strait is benefitting more from business cooperation. Given your figure of 70 billion US dollars, the annual infusion of Taiwan money amounts to only 7 billion US dollars. For your reference, annual FDI in China averages 40 billion US dollars.
Even yourself could not believe this figure is so pivotal to Chinese economy. In the meanwhile, Taiwan enjoys an annual trade surplus exceeding 20 billion US dollars per year. I could aslo claim that it is mainland that has been contributing substanstial financial gains above 1500 US dollars to Taiwan in the past decades. Actually, without the trade surplus from Mainland, Taiwan would have run overall deficit over that past several years.

The multiplying effect takes place not only in Mainland China but also in Taiwan. Investment in China creats huge demand for associated products manufactured in Taiwan. That is the reason behind trade imbalance across Taiwan Strait. Whithout the market and labour in Mainland China, Taiwans labour intensive industries will lose out in the competition to other countries. The failure of westard policy in Indonesia and perhaps in Malasya proves that no market could better serve Taiwan investors than Mainland China.

In conclusion, Taiwan investment is beneficial to the economic development in China. However, it is by no means a case where one side is sacrificing its own interests for the gains of another side. It is win-win situation.


NO:109_52
Simon ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/24 10:26
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

>>>> In conclusion, Taiwan investment is beneficial to the economic development >>>in China. However, it is by no means a case where one side is sacrificing >>>its own interests for the gains of another side. It is win-win situation.

¥xÆW»P¤¤°ê²{¦bªº¸g¶TÃö«Yµ´¹ï¤£¬O win-win situation.

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NO:109_53
ŪŪ¼Ö ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/24 11:54
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

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NO:109_54
Simon ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/24 14:06
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

To: Thinker

¦A¦^µª§A³o¤@¬q

>>>The multiplying effect takes place not only in Mainland China but also in Taiwan. Investment in China creats huge demand for associated products manufactured in Taiwan. That is the reason behind trade imbalance across Taiwan Strait. Whithout the market and labour in Mainland China, Taiwans labour intensive industries will lose out in the competition to other countries. The failure of westard policy in Indonesia and perhaps in Malasya proves that no market could better serve Taiwan investors than Mainland China.

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NO:109_55
ŪŪ¼Ö ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/24 23:08
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

HitCat ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/20 06:47
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NO:109_56
¤p©ú ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/25 01:28
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

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NO:109_57
¤p©ú ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/25 02:48
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

thinker,
»¡ªº¶T©ö°f®t¬O¤¤°ê¹ï¥xÆW¬I®¦´fªº¸Ü¡A¨º»ò¬ü°ê¤é¥»¹ï¤¤°ê¤j¤jªº°f®t¡A¦Ó¤¤°ê¤H«o¤³«ë¬ü°ê¤é¥»¤£ª¾¦p¦ó¦Û¶ê¨ä»¡¡H

NO:109_58
CW ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/25 03:20
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

to thinker:

Many of your arguments have been discussed before the previous collapse of
this web. I really do not want to repeat the arguments again and again. But
you might want to think about:

1. How does the money flow and generate: when money goes to the corruped officials and then
spent out; and when it goes to a company, through production/investment process,
then goes to employees, and then spent out. (think about the efficient, velocity (­¼¼Æ§@¥Î),
management, knowledge accumulation, technology spillovers...etc., through the production process)

Does it really have the same/similar effects in an economic system
when the money goes to corruped officials and an efficient firm?

2. Are China very different from the other developing countries, which experienced
fast growth in the 1960s and early 1970s? Many of them were very successful just
like China today. So how come they are still counted as developing countries
after 40 years? What are the roles of decomracy and law (even religions) in a
human society and how they can affect the economic activities?


NO:109_59
HitCat ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/25 05:00
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷3

To ŪŪ¼Ö
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Åwªï§A¥[¤J°Q½×¡C­º¥ý¡A½Ð§A¥¿µøNobody»PSimon¹ï§A¸ê®Æ¨Ó·½»P¥¿½T«×ªº½èºÃ¡C½Ð§Aµù©ú¸ê®Æªº¥X³B¡A³o¬O«Ü­«­nªº¡C²M·¡¦a¥æ¥N¸ê®Æ¨Ó·½¡AÅýŪªÌ¤]¥i¥H¦Û¦æÀËÃÒ¡A¬O«ÈÆ[°Q½×ªº°ò¥»«e´£¡C§A¥Î¡uYou can just put in Chinese economy in Yahoo search engine, a multitude of address will appear consequently. Therefore, I will not attempt to provide you here with empirical support.¡v¤@µ§±a¹L¡A¹ê¦b¬O«Ü¤£­t³d¥ô¡C

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¥t¥~¤@¶µ¼Æ¾Ú¡A´N¬OÃö©ó¤¤°ê°êÀç¥ø·~¹ï©ó¤¤°ê°]¬Fªº°^Äm¡C§A´£¨ì°êÀç¥ø·~¡A¹ï¤¤°ê°ê®a°]¬Fªº°^Äm¬°¦Ê¤À¤§¤C¤Q¥ª¥k¡A¡u70% of fiscal revenues of central government in China come from 500 largest SOE¡v¡C³o­Ó¼Æ¾Ú¬O¹L©ó°ª¦ô¤F¡C³o¤£¬O§Ú»¡ªº¡A¬O¥_¨Ê¤j¾Ç¤¤°ê¸gÀÙ¬ã¨s¤¤¤ßªºªL¼Ý¤Ò»¡ªº¡C¸Ó¤¤¤ß¥Xª©ªº°Q½×¤å³¹¡u¤¤°ê°ê¦³¥ø·~§ï­²ªº¦^ÅU»P®i±æ¡v´£¨ì¡A³o­Ó¼Æ¾Ú¨S¦³¦©°£±¼¤¤°ê¬F©²¹ï°ê¦³¥ø·~ªº¸É¶K»P¦A§ë¸ê¡C¤Þ¦Û¸Ó¤å¡G¡y°ê®a°]¬F¨C¦~¶È¡u¼W¼·¥ø·~¬y°Ê¸êª÷¡v»P¡u«õ¼ç§ï³y¸êª÷©M¬ì§Þ¡v¤T¶µ¶O¥Î¡A´N¦û¥þ³¡°ê¦³¥ø·~¤Wúµ¹°ê®a°]¬Fªº§Qµ|Á`ÃBªº10%¬Æ¦Ü§ó¦h¡C¦pªG¦A¦©°£°]¬F¥Î©ó¥ø·~°ò¥»«Ø³]ªº§ë¸ê¡A¨º»ò¡A°ê¦³¥ø·~¹ï©ó°ê®a°]¬Fªº°^Äm´N§ó¤p¤F¡z¡C¡]°Ñ¾\¸Ó¤å²Ä¤»­¶¡^

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§A»¡ªº¤H¥Á¹ô¦b1994¦~ªº¶S­È¬O¨È¬wª÷¿Ä¦M¾÷ªº¾É¤õ½u¡A³o­Ó»¡ªkÁöµM±`¨£¡A«o¤£¨£±o¬O¥¿½Tªº¡C¤¤°ê¤H¥Á¹ô¦b1994¦~ªº¶S­È¡C«ù³o­ÓÆ[ÂIªº¤H»{¬°¡A¤H¥Á¹ô¦b1994¦~¹ï¬ü¤¸¥¨´T¶S­È¡A¼W¥[¤¤°ê°Ó«~¥X¤f¶T©öªºÄvª§¤O¡A¨Ï±o¤¤°ê¦b1994¦~¤§«áªº¥X¤f¶T©ö¤]¥¨´T¦¨ªø¡C¦ý¬O¡A¬J¦³ªº¾Ç³N¬ã¨s¨Ã¤£¤ä«ù³o¼Ëªº¬Ýªk¡C®Ú¾ÚLigang Liuµ¥¤Hªº¬ã¨s«ü¥X¡A¤¤°ê¦b1994¦~¹ê¬I³æ¤@¶×²v¨î«×¥H«e¡A¤j³¡¥÷ªº¤H¥Á¹ô¥æ©ö³£¬O¦b¥«³õ¹ê»Ú¥æ©ö»ù®æ¡]¦Ó«D©x©w»ù®æ¡^©³¤U¶i¦æ¶R½æ¡C³ø§i¤¤¤Þ¥Î°ê»Ú³f¹ôª÷·|ªº¸ê®Æ¡A¦ôºâ¦b1993¦~®É¡A¦³±Nªñ80%ªº¥~¶×¥æ©ö³£¬O¥H¥«³õ»ù®æ¶i¦æ¶R½æ¡C´«¥y¸Ü»¡¡A¤H¥Á¹ô¦W¥Ø¶×²v(nominal exchange rate)ªº¶S­È¡A³y¦¨ªº½ÄÀ»¬Û·í¦³­­¡C¦pªG¦Ò¼{»P¶T©ö¸û¬°¬ÛÃöªº¹ê½è¶×²v¡]real exchange rate¡^¡A§Y¨Ï¤H¥Á¹ô¦b¦W¥Ø¶×²v¤W¦³¥¨´T¶S­È¡A¦ý¬O¦]¬°¤¤°ê¦b1994¦~¦Ü1996¦~¸g¾ú¤F¥¨´Tªº³q³f¿±µÈ¡]¥­§¡¨C¦~³q³f¿±µÈ²v¹F20%¡^¡A¦]¦¹¹ê½è¶×²v¨Ã¨S¦³¶S­È¡C±q1990¦~¦Ü¤µ¥H­°¡A¤H¥Á¹ôªº¹ê½è¶×²v¬Æ¦Ü¦³¨Ç¤É­È¡C³oÅã¥Ü¥X¡A¤H¥Á¹ô¶S­È¨Ã¤£¬O¨ë¿E¤¤°ê¥X¤f¦¨ªøªº¥D¦]¡C¹ï©ó¦V¤¤°ê¤@¼Ëªº¶}µo¤¤°ê®a¦Ó¨¥¡A¬F©²©¹©¹¦³¨ä¥Lªº¬Fµ¦¤u¨ã¥i¥H«P¶i¥X¤f¦¨ªø¡A¶×²v¶S­È¤£¨£±o¬O¥²µMªº¤u¨ã¡C

§A»¡¡G¡u¯uªº¥xÆW»P¤¤°ê¤j³°¬O¥X¤f¤£¦P¼h¯Åªº°Ó«~¶Ü¡H±qÀRºAªº¨¤«×¬Ý, ¹L¥h¬O, ²{¦b¤£¬O¤F¡v¡C§Ú«Ü§Æ±æ¥i¥Hťť§Aªº¬Ýªk¡C


NO:109_67
ŪŪ¼Ö ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/26 19:59
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

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§Û®Ñ©M¶K¤å¦³¦ó®t²§¡H¡H¡H¡ã¡ã¡ã«¢«¢«¢

NO:109_68
HitCat ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/26 21:37
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

To ŪŪ¼Ö

Would you please tell me from which books did I §Û®Ñ?


NO:109_69
ŪŪ¼Ö ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/26 21:41
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

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NO:109_70
HitCat ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/26 21:58
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

To ŪŪ¼Ö

Try to formulate your point of view. It might be difficult at the beginning. However, a first step is better than none.


NO:109_71
ŪŪ¼Ö ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/26 22:10
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

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NO:109_72
deltaforce ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/26 22:22
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

¢â¢Ï¢×¢å¢Ï¢Ü¡@¢Ü¢Ý.¢°¡I¡ã¡ã¡ã
¶â¶â~~~~,¦³§Ó®ð(¨S¹ê»Ú)»OÆW¦³±Ï¤F,¼K¼K
§A­Ìı¤£Ä±¦Û¤vÃö¤ß¤j³°(®@,¤£¹ï,¬O¤¤°ê,®tÂI§Ñ¤F)¹L¥÷¤F¶Ü?¤j³°¸gÀ٭ˤF,»OÆW¸gÀÙ´N¦n¤F?¦hÃö¤ß¤@¤U¦Û¤wªº¸gÀÙ§a.¤£­n¬°¤F¤Ï¹ï¦Ó¤Ï¹ï.

NO:109_73
HitCat ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/26 22:25
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

The following article (not complete) is taken from Taipei Times on line, 26th June 2002. I am sorry to have set a bad example to others. I hope ŪŪ¼Ö would forgive me this time.

System reform needed for growth By Chi Schive (礵a)

Taiwan Semiconductor Manu-facturing Co (TSMC, ¥x¿n¹q) chairman Morris Chang (±i©¾¿Ñ) recently pointed out that the Tai-wanese economy has already developed as far as it can under the current system. This statement offers two topics for discussion. First, what is the purpose of economic growth, or what does economic growth mean, and second, are there any limitations to economic growth?
A nations economic growth is normally measured by changes in its real GDP. Real GPD means that price changes are deducted. Domestic indicates the total sum of all products and services produced within the country. The national in GNP or national income, indicates the income created by a nations citizens or residents.

For example, income pro-duced by Taiwanese citizens abroad is part of Taiwans GNP and also part of the other coun-trys GDP. In the same way, profits created by US companies in Tai-wan are part of Taiwans GDP and part of the US GNP.

National income is the same as GNP, minus depreciation and indirect taxation. Depreciation means wear and depreciation of fixed assets caused by production activities. These fixed assets must be renewed and should therefore not be included in the national income, which is used to estimate the national living standard.

Indirect taxation reflects a part of government expenditure that is not part of the economic welfare, eg, expenditure on military equipment.

In the end, the most representative measure of a countrys economic welfare or living standards is the average national income, even though the word average is often left out.

When making international comparisons based on national income data, we must convert figures into US dollars. If this conversion is not specified, the exchange rate for the given period (year) is often made the standard. This poses a thorny problem, since exchange rates are likely to fluctuate.

In reality, the average growth of Taiwans economy from 1990 to 2000 was 6.37 percent, which compared to international standards is a medium to high rate of growth. Calculated in US dollars, Taiwans average GDP in 1990 was US$8,111, US$11,806 in 1994 and US$14,188 in 2000. In the seven years from 1994 to 2000, individual income grew by 20.1 percent, and did not hover around US$13,000 through the last seven or eight years.

It is worth mentioning that while the Asian economy as a whole remained flat in the year following the Asian financial crisis, Taiwans economy grew by 4.57 percent.

Since the New Tai-wan dollar depreciated sharply, however, the average GNP fell from US$13,592 the year before to US$12,360, a fall of 9.1 percentage points. This decrease, however, was largely made up for during the following year. If, however, we calculate last years national income in US dollars, it suddenly falls to the 1995 level.

There are three reasons for this. The first reason is a negative 1.9 percent economic growth, the second is the depreciation of the New Taiwan dollar and the third is the increase in Taiwans population. Due to these factors, Taiwans economy is really in trouble and the public feels it has become poorer, not over the past six or seven years, but since last year.

(Cited from Teipei Times on line, 26th June 2002, not complete)


NO:109_74
HitCat ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/26 22:38
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

To deltaforce,

you are exactly what we call island mentality. Dont you see that we are discussing the interaction between Taiwan economy and Chinese economy? and our future development and economic strategies?

If you want to discuss solely about Taiwan economy, you can open a new column. I will discuss with you.


NO:109_75
Chiron ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/26 22:47
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

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»OÆW¼t®a¦h¼Æ¤£Ä@³Ð·s¡A±`µ¥¬ü¡B¤é¡BÁúÄÀ¥X§Þ³N¡AÁʶR«á¡F¤@ºÛ¸Á¥Í²£«d»ù¡C¥b¦~¥H«á¡A¶}©l¦³¼t°Ó¥~²¾¤¤°ê¡A±µµÛ¦¨¦ê¥~²¾¡C

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NO:109_76
deltaforce ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/26 23:12
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

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NO:109_77
ªü±j ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/27 09:37
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

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NO:109_78
Simon ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/27 17:30
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

To: Hitcat

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NO:109_81
HitCat ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/28 07:38
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷4

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NO:109_82
Thinker ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/29 07:18
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

To: Hitcat, Simon, Nobody and Chiron

I think all of you have chosen the wrong reference system while reviewing the economic strategies of Taiwan.

As a middle-sized economy like Taiwan, peer comparison should target Nordic countries(Finland, Sweden and Norway) and South Korea, because these economies have population, GDP, industrialization parameters much closer to Taiwan. Probably, these economies constitute more direct competitors of Taiwan in World Market of IT and communication products.

If you always compare Taiwan with Mainland China, you will be misled by the advantages of Taiwan and feel complacent about the techncial and income gap. Mainland China seldom compares itself with India, because targeting a less developed rival dampens your ambition. Furthermore, as a continental economy, Mainland China must follow different development stragies and undergo different market transformation. It is difficult to analyse economic situation of China according to the development experience of Taiwan.


NO:109_83
Thinker ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/29 08:11
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

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¡]²±¬x¡A¥_¨Ê¤Ñ«h¸gÀÙ¬ã¨s©Ò¾Ç³N©e­û¡F¶À¤@¸q¡A¥_¨Ê¤Ñ«h©Ò«t¸ß¦³­­¤½¥q¬ã¨s­û¡^



NO:109_86
Simon ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/29 10:43
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

Thinker

>>> As a middle-sized economy like Taiwan, peer comparison should target Nordic countries(Finland, Sweden and Norway) and South Korea, because these economies have population, GDP, industrialization parameters much closer to Taiwan. Probably, these economies constitute more direct competitors of Taiwan in World Market of IT and communication products.

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NO:109_87
RIETI ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/29 13:47
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷


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¨S¿ù¡A¤¤°ê¬O¥Í²£¤j°ê¡B¥~¶T¤j°ê¡A¦ý³Ì­«­nªº¤¤°ê¨Ã¤£¬O¡y®ø¶O¤j°ê¡z¡A¥ú¬O³oÂI¡A
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NO:109_88
HitCat ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/29 16:06
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

To Thinker

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NO:109_89
RIETI ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/29 16:13
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

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NO:109_90
HitCat ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/30 02:17
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

´¡¼½¥»´Á¸gÀپǤHªÀ½× --- ¥xÆW¤H¹ï¤@°ê¨â¨î¿³½ì¯Ê¯Ê
¥X³B¡GThe Economist¡A2002¦~June 29th--July 5th, ²Ä14­¶
¼ÐÃD¡GHong Kongs first five years under Beijings rule are not advertisement for a Greater China

¨ú¦Û¸ÓªÀ½×¡G­»´ä¹L¥h¤­¦~ªº¸gÅç¡Aµ·²@µLªk¹ª»R¥xÆW¤H¹ï©ó©Ò¿×¤@°ê¨â¨îªº¿³½ì¡C¤j¦h¼Æªº¥xÆW¤H¶V¨Ó¶V¼Ö©ó«ÅºÙ¥L­Ìªº¿W¥ß¡A§Y¨Ï­±¹ï¤¤¦@ªñ¦b«¤§`ªºªZ¤O«Â¯Ù¡C

But the past five years have done nothing to encourage enthusiasm on the island («ü¥xÆW) for anything resembling the one country, two systems experience of Hong Kong. Most Taiwanese are growingly happy to proclaim their separateness, even in the teeth of Chinese military intimidation. Until China embraces democracy, their suspicions will not be allayed: unification between a democracy and a dictorship is an unnatural act.


NO:109_91
THINKER ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/30 06:14
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TO: HITCAT,SIMON, NOBODY, CHIRON

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NO:109_92
¥x¥_¾Ç¥Í ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/30 06:59
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

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NO:109_93
HitCat ¡@©ó¡@2002/06/30 17:15
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

To Thinker

§A¸òŪŪ¼Ö¬O¦P¯Z¦P¾Ç¶Ü¡H¥u·|±i¶K¤@¨Ç¸ò¥DÃDµLÃöªº°Å³ø¡HŪŪ¼Ö³£ÁÙ¤ñ§A¦n¡A¥L¶K¤å³£·|µù©ú¥X³B¡A¦Ó§A³£¤£¥æ¥N¨Ó·½¡A¥u»¡¡u¬O¬ü°ê¤H¼gªº¡v¡C¬ü°ê¤H¨º»ò¦h¡A½Öª¾¹D§A¶Kªº¤å¬O­þ­Ó¬ü°ê¤H¼gªº¡H½Ð§A¦A¦^ÀY¬Ý¬Ý§Úµ¹ÅªÅª¼Öªº¦^µª¡A»¡©ú¬°¦ó¤£­n¥Î¶K¤å¨ú¥NÅG½×¡C

§A­nºô¸ôÅG½×¡A´N­n°w¹ï¶K¤åªº¥DÃD°Q½×¡A¤£­n¦Û¤vÁ¿¦Û¤vªº¸Ü¡A¤]¤£ºÞ§O¤H¹ï§Aªº½èºÃ¡C§Y¨Ï§A¬O­n°µ¬Fµ¦«Å¶Ç¡A¤]¤£¯à¥u¬O¦ÛÁ¿¦Û¸Ü¡C§A¦Û¤v·Q·Q¬Ý¡A³o¼Ëº©µL¥DÃD¦a½Í½×¤@µf¡A¬OµLªk¹F¨ì¥ô¦ó·¾³q»P»¡ªAªº®ÄªGªº¡C°£¤F·¥¤Ö¼Æ¦³­@¤ßªººô¤Í¤§¥~¡A¤£·|¦³¤H¥hŪ§A¨º¨Ç¤S¯ä¤Sªøªº¶K¤å¡C¤j¦h¼Æºô¤Íªº°ÝÃD¡A¤£¬O¸ê°T¤£°÷¡A¤]¤£¬O¨SŪ¹L¬ÛÃöªº³ø¾É¡Cºô¤Íªº°ÝÃD¡A¬OµLªk±q²³¦hªº¸ê°T¤¤¨ú±Ë¡Aµ¹¥X¥¿½T¦X²zªº§PÂ_¡Cºô¸ôÅG½×ªº·N¸q¡A´N¦b³z¹L¤¬¬Û½èºÃ¨Ó¼á²M³o¨ÇºÃÂI¡C¥xÆWªººô¤Í¨ú±o¸ê°T³£¬Û·í«K§Q¡A¤£»Ý­n§Ú­Ì¦b³o¸Ì¾á¥ôÂà¶K­û¡C

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NO:109_94
Thinker ¡@©ó¡@2002/07/01 04:32
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷


To: Hitcat

The reason why I posted the above article is that some lessons may be derived for Taiwan in economic readjustment. If posting articles here is offending, I will discontinue this habit.

As far as sources of my information is concerned, I hope you can specify some detailed topics. I do not think it is necessary for me to give you an address related to the real GDP, FDI, Debt ratio, fiscal revenues figures etc. These data are debatable by themselves. For example, CIA data indicates China is already the second largest economy in the world in PPP terms, whereas World Bank more or less accepts the data provided by Chinese government. Recent articles by some US scholars think all these data are artificially inflated and unreliable. Given the above fact, I have attempted to post some articles in order to explain the rationale behind these vastly different judgement of the status quo of Chinese economy.

I think it is a common habit for people on this forum, including myself, to refer to media articles since these articles are more biased and sensational. It is relatively easy to carry your personal opinions with these articles. More scholastic articles will appear both stinking and prolonged as you have mentioned. As a matter of fact, posting an article is a lazy but shrewed way of thrusting your own opinions. By the very action of posting, you identify with the viewpoint of the author of article.

If you do have the patience and interest, I recommend the following articles for some third-party assessment about the recent macro-economic situation in China. Probably, there are more reliable and objective than media ones.

(1)Asian Development Bank
http://www.adb.org/Documents/Books/ADO/2002/prc.asp

(2)WORLD BANK ECONOMIC UPDATE OF CHINA
http://lnweb18.worldbank.org/eap/eap.nsf/Attachments/eapupdate0402/$File/china.pdf

(2)CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY of USA
http://www.odci.gov/cia/public_affairs/speeches/archives/1998/nic_speech_120198.html
http://www.odci.gov/nic/pubs/conference_reports/china_future_implications.htm


NO:109_95
Simon ¡@©ó¡@2002/07/01 10:16
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

To: Thinker

>>>>> ¥xÆWªº¸gÀÙ°ÝÃD¥þ³¡Âk©ó¤j³°, ¤£«È®ð¦a»¡¬O¤@ºØÀ¶®zªºªí²{.

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NO:109_97
HitCat ¡@©ó¡@2002/07/01 18:53
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

To Thinker,

Posting articles itself is not offending, and you can continue that habit if you like. The problem is, the articles you have posted are not related to our topic. You said, ¡§the reason why I posted the above article is that some lessons may be derived for Taiwan in economic readjustment”. Well, please have at look at our title. What we are talking about is: whether China is facing a coming financial crisis. Not the economic development of Taiwan.

I doubt you data on the Taiwanese foreign direct investment in China, and your argument that FDI from Taiwan do little help to Chinese economy. As you said, Chinese economic statistics are not reliable, and statistics gathered by different institutes diverge a lot. That is why you should make clear where your data is coming from. Explain to us where you get these data, and how you derive your conclusion. We have been waiting for your reply.


NO:109_98
PLD ¡@©ó¡@2002/07/01 19:38
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

Believe or not, FDI from Taiwan only accounted for 7.5% of total FDI invested in China between 1979 and 2000, while close to 50% of the total was from HK. The second biggest source of FDI was US. With the merely 7.5% market share in FDI, Taiwan was able to grab in US20B in terms of trade surplus each year. Without that, Taiwan would not have survived the trouble in 1998. So stop whinning.
BTW, Taiwans Debt-to-GDP ratio has reached 29.4% already. And this number only accounts for the debt assumed by central government. If you ask me, my guess is Taipeis central government will have gone bankrupted long before Beijing. Remeber, Beijing government can tap on the US1T domestic savings when needed.


NO:109_99
HitCat ¡@©ó¡@2002/07/01 20:55
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

To PLD,

Hi, economic science is neither a discipline about believe nor about religion. Asserting something without giving evidence and argument is a bad habit. If you are really confident about what you are talking about, don�脌 be shy to tell us how you get to the conclusion. O.K.?


NO:109_100
Thinker ¡@©ó¡@2002/07/01 21:44
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷


To: HitCat,

This forum needs technical improvement at least on two fronts.(1) the provision of table and picture postings. You insist on my clarification of data. How can I possibly exhibit economic trend and data without tables and diagrams? (2) the provision of private message. Most forums offers this function for participants to engage in prolonged but more focused discussion.

Despite of the above, I will provide sources of data in the following:
(1) the percentage of Taiwan investment versus total off-shore investment in China
http://internationalecon.com/currentissues/china/berkun.pdf (please read page 8)
The graph from this source correlates with the posting of PLD.
I have never denied the economic benefits brought by Taiwan investment to Mainland China. However, it is groundless to exaggerate this contribution.

(2) Trade balance between Taiwan and Mainland
http://www.twq.com/01summer/mastel.pdf (please read page 3)
Over the past decade, Taiwan has recouped a combined trade surplus of 149.53 billion US dollars. If you correlate this figure with percentage of investment, which side is benefiting more from economic integration?

(3) Debt-to-GDP ratio
http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/5-31-2002-19568.asp
This article clearly stated Japans Debt-to-GDP ratio had exceeded 135%.
I once use this figure to indicate that China will not collapse even if its Debt-to-GDP ratio is approaching 60% as estimated by some foreign scholars.
As far as Taiwan is concerned, it is still pretty safe at the rate of 29.4%. Most OECD countries have the rate of 65% with Italy and Japan leading the pack at above 130%.


NO:109_101
Simon ¡@©ó¡@2002/07/01 23:06
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

To: Thinker

As for above
(1) the percentage of Taiwan investment versus total off-shore investment in China

I wish you can understand how the multinational companys corporate structure are formed, many you China deemed HK companies, or Spore or Thailan or USA or BVI tax heaven companies ,who invested in China their original investors are Taiwanese, individuals or business entities.

(2) Trade balance between Taiwan and Mainland

Your conception upon trade balance is totally miserable.
Furthurmore, you never realize how the flow of international trade , from Taiwan to China to USA.
Definitely, China enjoy the benefit triggered by Taiwans FDI to China.
Its Taiwan make China enjoy strong business & economic activities plus huge trade surplus with USA, the trade surplus Taiwan has upon China doesnt cover the dometic activities lost and reduced Taiwan local investment.

(3) Debt-to-GDP ratio
Unfunded pension expenditure is always the key item Taiwan & China are easily neglected. The possible cost to sove almost bankrpcy SOE also has to take into account.

Besides, the peoples savings can be easily vaporized if oneday Non Perform Loan trigger confidence crisis, especially FDI to China decrease or any natural disaster like floody .


NO:109_102
Thinker ¡@©ó¡@2002/07/02 04:53
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

To: Simon

(3) The 60% debt ratio for China already includes the pension and dead loan liabilities of central government, otherwise the figure is around 25%. You may be surprised to learn this relatively low figure. Before the economic reform program starting in 1979, there had been no such capital market tools as treasury bonds in mainland China. The 25% ratio has been accumulated in the past 20 years only.

(2) If you read my postings carefully, I have never denied the dynamic role played by Taiwan investors in mainland market. In the following article, you will find a different explaination of the sources of finance for Taiwan investment.

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website:

¡@http://www.unirule.org.cn/symposium/c172.htm

Actually, it is Mainland that provides profits and capitals to Taiwan, not vice versa.

(1) Yes,investment from Taiwan contributes towards Chinas trade surplus with United States. Do not forget, if China has a surplus of 30 billion US dollars,20 billion US dollars will be finally transferred to Taiwan Investors, who lose nothing from the game. Furthermore, trade surplus is not free grant from USA. You have to exchange goods for money. US is running a huge trade deficit with the world and is ploying to devalue its currency very soon(20% according to some estimates). Taiwan should be careful in view of its huge foreign reserves denominated in US dollars. Although Mainland has higher foreign reserves, the loss from potential devaluation could be more or less compensated by comparable foreign debts denominated in the same currency. Japan and Taiwan will suffer the most from the collapse of US dollars. US is not exempt from the book-cooking practice.(Enron, Worldcom, Xerox, Anderson,-----)



NO:109_103
PLD ¡@©ó¡@2002/07/02 07:23
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

Simon
I wish you can understand how the multinational companys corporate structure are formed, many you China deemed HK companies, or Spore or Thailan or USA or BVI tax heaven companies ,who invested in China their original investors are Taiwanese, individuals or business entities

->Thats a weak arguement.Although most Taiwan companies invest in Mainland through their HKor Singagore arms, they are still counted as Taiwan companies. For instance, the funding for Formosa Plastics ZhangZhou power generation plant was from US but its still counted as investment from Taiwan. If what you said was the case, Taiwan wont even have 7.5% of the market share in total FDI. Try adding up the total Investment formally approved by Taiwan government, its no where close to 7.5% of Chinas TDI.


Its Taiwan make China enjoy strong business & economic activities plus huge trade surplus with USA, the trade surplus Taiwan has upon China doesnt cover the dometic activities lost and reduced Taiwan local investment.

-->Using your own words, , don¡¦t be shy to tell us how you get to the conclusion. O.K.?
A trade surplus of 20B directly accounts for almost 7% of Taiwans GDP, even without considering the added effect in domestic investment and consumption. Remeber, most of those enterprises which invested in Mainland did so not because the CCP enticed them, its for their own survival. Had ±d®v³Å not gone to mainland, it would have closed its doors long time ago. Same for those shoe and garment factories. If they dont go to Mainland, their market share in US will be taken away by HK owned factories which manufactures in Mainland. Economic integration with Mainland China only hurts those who doesnt have the skill set required to survive the competition. They will lose their jobs anyways, even if their factories didnt move to Mainland. In fact, no country in East and South East Asia can compete with China in cost. Not even Indonesia, let along Taiwan. The only way for Taiwan to survive is through better integration with China and upgrading its labor force. Through better integration with Chinese mainland, it can access its vast market and cheap resources. An upgraded labor force can provide expertise Mainland China doesnt currently have. Meanwhile, the grassroot will suffer, and Taiwans economy will tranform from manufacturing oriented to service oriented.


NO:109_104
Simon ¡@©ó¡@2002/07/02 12:09
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

«Ü¦n,

¾A¥i¦Ó¤î, ¤£·Qªá®É¶¡¥h´£¤É¤¤°ê¤Hªº´¼¤O¤ô·Ç.


NO:109_105
NOBODY ¡@©ó¡@2002/07/02 17:47
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

TO Thinker:

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NO:109_106
HitCat ¡@©ó¡@2002/07/02 19:18
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

To Thinker,

Thank you. Refer to your post NO:109_100, you have made a good example to all of us. I fully agree with you that this forum needs technical improvement like the provision of table and picture postings, so that we can exhibit economic trend and data with tables and diagrams. I hope webmaster will try to solve this problem.

I really enjoy reading your articles. Actually we share a common basis with one another except the cultural aspects of economic development. Let me try to make it clear.

First, I think the Chinese government debt is sustainable, if China keeps on its economic reform. Even if one includes the fiscal costs to bail out the non-performing loans, the government debt to GDP ratio is still mild in comparison to other transition economies. Some people like Simon have exaggerated the seriousness of this problem.

Second, I agree with you that ¥xÆWªº¸gÀÙ°ÝÃD¥þ³¡Âk©ó¤j³°, ¤£«È®ð¦a»¡¬O¤@ºØÀ¶®zªºªí²{. Economic policy is domestic affairs, not foreign affairs. Most of the current economic problems of Taiwan are home made, not imported from China. I don�脌 understand why some people like Simon blame China for the economic problems of Taiwan. Companies move their production sites to China simply because our industries are no more competitive. The solution is to improve our own industrial structures, to be more capital intensive and more value-added oriented. Trying to blame China does not help at all. Taiwan itself had developed from labor intensive industries like the Chinese are now doing. Did anyone blame us because we had cheap labor?

Third, I strong against the argument of Simon that economic cooperation with China will make Taiwan worse. Economic gains are bilateral, if they are voluntary. Don�脌 forget our own history. Taiwan can transform from poor country to a rich country, because we are open to international trade, we are a integrated part of the world economy. This rule was effective, and is still effective. I don�脌 see why trade with other countries have brought us fortune, and trade with China will not?

It takes a lot of time to write a reply. So like you, I might be less able to post articles here, otherwise my boss will pressure me too. But keep writing.


NO:109_107
Thinker ¡@©ó¡@2002/07/02 22:34
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

To: HitCat and Nobody,

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CHIRONªº¥D±i¬O¬F©²·F¹w, ¶i¦æ¾ã¦X©M§ë¸ê, ³o¨Ç¤èªk, ¼Ú¬w°ê®a¦­¦b70-80¦~¥N´N¹Á¸Õ¹L, ¦ý¬O¦³¥H¤U°ÝÃD: (1) ­±Á{´N·~»P³q³f¿±µÈ¤§¶¡¨âÃø¿ï¾Üªºµá¤O»Z´µ¦±½u, ¬F©²³æ¯Â°l¨D´£°ª´N·~¾÷·|, ·|¾É­P³q³f¿±µÈªº¥[³t, ¦Ó¤@¦ý°ª³q³f§Î¦¨, ±N·|¥I¥X§ó¤jªº¥¢·~¥N»ù¤~¯à­°§C³qº¦²v; (2) ¬F©²§ë¸ê¹ï¥Á¶¡§ë¸êªºÀ½¥X®ÄÀ³, ¦pªG¬F©²§ë¸êªº¦^³ø²v§C©ó¥Á¶¡§ë¸ê, ¾ã­ÓªÀ·|±o¨ì¥I­±ªº¦^³ø. ¤@¯ë¨Ó»¡, ¦pªG¬F©²§ë¸ê©ó±Ð¨|©M¤½¦@¤uµ{, ¨ä¦^³ø²v¬O¦³«Oµýªº, ³o¤]³\¬O¥xÆW¬F©²¥Ø«eÀ³¸Ó°µªº, ¦ý¬O¨ä®É®Ä©Ê±Ð®t, ±Ð¨|¥i¯à¦h¦~«á¤~¯à¬Ý¨ìµ²ªG.(3) ÂX±i©Êªº°]¬F¬Fµ¦©Ò±a¨Óªº¨ª¦r°ÝÃD, ®É¶¡¹Lªø·|¼W¥[¬F©²ªº­t¶Å¤ñ¨Ò. ¤é¥»¤§©Ò¥H¹F¨ì135%, ´N¬O¤j¶q§ë¸ê¤£»Ý­nªº¤½¦@¤uµ{, ¥ø¹Ï¨ë¿E¸gÀÙ´_Ĭ. ¥xÆW¦b¿ï¾Ü³o¤@¬Fµ¦®É¤]»Ý­n·V­«.
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®Ú¾Ú³f¹ô¨ÑÀ³¾Ç¬£ªºÆ[ÂI, ³Ò°Ê¤O¨Ñµ¹ªº¦±½u¬O««ª½ªº, §Y¦b¤@©wªº¸gÀÙµ²ºc©M³Ò°Ê¤O±Ð¨|¤ô¥­¤§¤U, ¦b¤£¾É­P³q³f¿±µÈªº±¡ªp¤U, ´N·~²v¤£·|´£°ª. ¦pªG·Q­n¤ô¥­²¾°Ê¨Ñµ¹¦±½u, ¤@©w­n¶i¦æ¸gÀÙµ²ºcªº½Õ¾ã©M¨³³t´£°ª¤H¥Áªº±Ð¨|¤ô¥­. µ²ºc½Õ¾ã¤£¤@©w¬O³æ¯Âµo®i°ª¬ì§Þ,¦Ó¬O­n´£°ªªA°È·~ªº¤ñ²v. ©TµM¤j³°©M¦L¥§ªº³Ò°Ê¤O¦¨¥»§C, ¦ý¬O²¦³º³Ò¤O¤£¶H¸ê¥»¤@¼Ë¥i¥H¸ó¬É¬y°Ê, ¥xÆW§C±Ð¨|³Ò¤OÁÙ¬O¥i¥H¦b¹Ò¤ºªA°È·~§ä¨ì¤u§@ªº. ¥Nªí©ÊªºªA°È·~¦³ª÷¿Ä,«OÀI, ¯è¹B,®È¹C, ±Ð¨|,Åé¨|,¹q°T, ¯èªÅµ¥µ¥. ¦ý¬O³o¨Ç¦æ·~ªºµo®i¤]»Ý­nÄvª§, ¤£¬O»P¤j³°Ävª§,¦Ó¬O»P­»´ä, ·s¥[©Y, ¤é¥»ªºÄvª§, ¨È¤ÓÀç¹B¤¤¤ß´N¬O¤@­Ó¤è¦V, ¥Ø«eªº¥þ²y¤Æ¸gÀÙ®ö¼é¤U, ¦U°êªº¸gÀÙ³£¨ü¨ì¤F«Ü¤jªº¨RÀ», ¨S¦³²{¦¨ªºµo®i¼Ò¦¡, ¤]¨S¦³«Ü»´ÃPªº¥«³õµ¥«Ý§A¥h¦û»â, ¨C¤@ÂI¦¨ÁZ³£»Ý­n¥h¥´«÷. ©Ò¥H§Ú¦b«e­±»¡¥X¤F¤£«È®ðªºµû»ù, ´N¬OÃhºÃ¦³¨Ç¥xÆW¤H­±¹ï¬D¾Ô¤w¥¢¥h«H¤ß.¦ý¬O¦pªG·Q·Q¤j³°3000¸Uªº°ê¥ø¤U±^¤u¤H©M¼Æ¥Ø§ó¤jªº¹A§ø¥¢·~¤H¤f, ¥i¥H»¡¥xÆW°Ñ»PÄvª§ªº°_ÂI­n°ª±o¦h, ±ø¥ó¤]¦n±o¦h,¦]¦ÓÂ૬¦¨¥\ªº§Æ±æÁÙ¬O«Ü¤jªº.


NO:109_108
Simon ¡@©ó¡@2002/07/02 23:18
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

Hitcat

¶º¬O¸Ó¦Yªº¡A¦ý¬O¦Y¹LÀY¤F´NÁV¿|¤F.

¥xÆW¹L«×§ë¸ê¤¤°ê, ¾É­Pªº¨Ì¦s«×³o»ò°ª·|¦n¶Ü?

»·ªº­n¯À»ù®æ§¡µ¥¤Æ, °ò¥»ªº¦³®Ä»Ý¨D....


>>>>Taiwan can transform from poor country to a rich country, because we are open to international trade, we are a integrated part of the world economy.

­J»¡¤K¹D½§²Lªº­n¦º.

Whats & how to open to international trade ? §J¾|°Ò·¨¤p³Íµ¥ªº°ê»Ú¶T©ö²z½×, ¦­´N¸ÑÄÀ¤F, TFP ¤]±Ð§A¤F. ÆxÄM¾Ç¦Þªº¶}©ñ¦Û¥Ñ, ¥u¤£¹L¥¿·í¤Æ½æ¥x¦HÂÝ.


¥xÆW¸ò¤¤°ê¨ì¤µ¤Ñ, ¦X«h¨â§Q ¦Û©l´N¬OÄF§½.¸òªL¼Ý¤Ò³o½Ý¥J¥R·í¤¤°êªº©Û°Ó¯S»º¶¤¬~¸£¤j¶¤¯±ºq¶¤¨SÔ£¨â¼Ë.


NO:109_109
HitCat ¡@©ó¡@2002/07/03 00:05
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

To Simon

ÆxÄM¾Ç¦Þªº¶}©ñ¦Û¥Ñ, ¥u¤£¹L¥¿·í¤Æ½æ¥x¦HÂÝ.
¸òªL¼Ý¤Ò³o½Ý¥J¥R·í¤¤°êªº©Û°Ó¯S»º¶¤¬~¸£¤j¶¤¯±ºq¶¤¨SÔ£¨â¼Ë.

You are good at phraseology. You should be awarded a prize.


NO:109_110
Simon ¡@©ó¡@2002/07/03 00:41
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

¤JÀj³½¤§¸v¡A¤[¦Ó¤£»D¨ä¯ä¡A´N¬O¥xÆW¤@¤j²¼¡i¤ä¨ºÅé¨î¡j²V¤U¥hªø¤jªº°°¾ÇªÌ.


NO:109_111
THINKER ¡@©ó¡@2002/07/03 01:47
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

TO SIMON,

¹ï¸Ü­n¥H²zªA¤H, ´L­«§O¤H¤]¬O´L­«¦Û¤v, §Aªº·P±¡§O¤H¯à°÷²z¸Ñ, ¨ä¹ê§A¬O¥xÆW¤Ï¹ï²£·~ªÅ¬}¤Æªº¥Nªí, ¦b°ê»Ú¤W¤]¦³«Ü¦h§Aªº¦P·ù­x, ¨Ò¦p10¸U¤H¦b¦è¶®¹Ï§Üij°ª®p­º¸£·|ij´N¬O¤@­Ó¨Òµý. §A§¹¥þ¥i¥H­É¥Î¥L­Ìªº²z½×, ¨S¦³¥²­n¦p¦¹¥Í®ð.

¥t¥~, §A¤]¤£­n§C¦ô¤j³°¤Hªº´¼¼z, ¤@¯ë¨Ó»¡¤j³°¤W¹L¾Çªº¤H³£¨ü¹L¦è¤è¥j¨å¥D¸q­õ¾ÇªººëÅè,¶Â®æº¸ÅGµýªk«ä·QªºâÀ³³, ¦b«ä¦Ò°ÝÃD¤W¦³«Ü¦nªº¤èªk½×©M¤u¨ã. ¥u¤£¹L¦b¥H«e, ³o¨Ç¤u¨ã³£³Q¥Î¨Ó¶¥¯Å°«ª§, ¯Ô»~¤F¸gÀÙµo®i©M¥Á¥Í«Ø³].

§A¦pªG·Qª¾¹D§Ú­Ì¬O«ç»ò¦Ò¼{°ÝÃDªº, §Ú¥i¥HÁ|¤@­ÓÀ³¥ÎÅGµýªk«ä·Qªº¨Ò¤l
(1) ¯u²z¬O¬Û¹ïªº¦Ó¤£¬Oµ´¹ïªº, ¦h¨«¤@¨B´N¬OÂÕ»~.
©Ò¥H§Úı±o§A©M§Ú»¡ªº¸Ü³£¦³¹ïªº¦¨¤À, ¦ý¬OªÖ©w¦³¤£·í¤§³B.

(2) ¨Æª«ªºµo®i¦³¤@­Ó±q¶qÅܨì½èÅܪº¹Lµ{
©Ò¥H§Ú§P©w¥xÆWªº²£·~¤É¯Å¤£·|¬O¤@­Óµu¼È¶¶§Qªº¹Lµ{, »Ý­n°²¥H®É¤é.

(3) ¨Æª«¦³¥D­n¥Ù¬Þ©M¦¸­n¥Ù¬Þ, ¦Ó¥B¥Ù¬Þªº¹ï¥ß­±¬O¥i¥H¬Û¤¬Âà¤Æªº
¤ÀªR¤@¤U, ¥i¥H¤F¸Ñ¥xÆW¸gÀټȮɪº§xÃø¨s³º¬O§_¥D­nÂk©S©ó¤j³°, ¦pªG¬O, À³«ç¼Ë«P¶i¹ï¥ßªºÂà¤Æ, ±N¤£§Qªº±ø¥ó§ï¬°¦³§Qªº±ø¥ó. Ä´¦p»¡§ïµ½¤º³¡§ë¸êÀô¹Ò, ´£¨Ñµ|¦¬©M¥Î¤u¤è­±ªº«K§Q±ø¥ó, §Q¥Î³Ò¤O±K¶°²£·~¿é¥Xªº¾÷·|, ¥[±j¤º³¡°ª¬ì§Þ©MªA°È·~ªºµo®i.

(4) ¨Æª«ªºµo®iÅܤƦ³¤º¦]¤]¦³¥~¦], ¥~¦]¬O±ø¥ó,¦ý¬O¤º¦]¬O¨M©w¦]¯À.
¥Ñ¦¹¥i¥H±À½×¥xÆWªº¸gÀÙ¦³°ÝÃD, ©TµM¦³¥~³¡Àô¹Òªº­ì¦], ¦ý¬Oµª®×¥i¯àÁÙ­n±q¤º³¡§ä.

(5) ¹B°Ê¬Oµ´¹ïªº, ÀR¤î¬O¬Û¹ïªº
¨S¦³¤@¦¨¤£Åܪº¸gÀÙ¼Ò¦¡©M¥~³¡Àô¹Ò, ¥xÆW¤£¥i¯à¦A§Q¥Î³Ò°Ê±K¶°«¬¨î³y·~¨Ó¸Ñ¨M´N·~°ÝÃD.

(6) ¨Æª«¬O´¶¹MÁp¨tªº
±q³oÂI¬Ý, ¥xÆW½T¹ê¦³¥²­n¦Ò¼{¥«³õ©M§ë¸êªº¦h¤¸¤Æ°ÝÃD, ¦ý¬O¨Mµ¦¬O¬Ý§ë¸ê¦^³ø, ¦Ó¤£¬O¾Ì¬Fªv¥h¦Vªº¦n´c. ¦pªG§ë¸ê«n¬ü¥i¥HÁȨì§ó¦hªº¿ú, ¬°¤°»ò¤£¥h. ²{¦b¤Ú®³°¨¹Bªeªº¹BÀçÅv³£¬O§õ¹Å¸Ûªº.

§Ú³o­Ó¨Ò¤l¤£¬O»¡³o­Ó¤èªk´N¬O³Ì¦nªº, ¥u¬O»¡©ú¤j³°¤H¨Ã¤£¬O§A·Q¶Hªº¶Ì¥Ê, ¾ÌªÅ¦Ò¼{°ÝÃD.


NO:109_112
HitCat ¡@©ó¡@2002/07/03 18:28
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

To Thinker

You say,¤@¯ë¨Ó»¡¤j³°¤W¹L¾Çªº¤H³£¨ü¹L¦è¤è¥j¨å¥D¸q­õ¾ÇªººëÅè,¶Â®æº¸ÅGµýªk«ä·QªºâÀ³³, ¦b«ä¦Ò°ÝÃD¤W¦³«Ü¦nªº¤èªk½×©M¤u¨ã. That is exaggeration. What you Chinese have learned is not real philosophy and dialectic, but merely politicized dogmas.

You remind me the past history of KMT. KMT used to tell us that Taiwanese students were learning the essence of western democracy and philosophy, because they are already contained in the Three Principles of People. So far I know, only the most stupid students would believe that.


NO:109_113
¸ô²p ¡@©ó¡@2002/07/03 23:00
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

Thinker

>>§A¦pªG·Qª¾¹D§Ú­Ì¬O«ç»ò¦Ò¼{°ÝÃDªº, §Ú¥i¥HÁ|¤@­ÓÀ³¥ÎÅGµýªk«ä·Qªº¨Ò¤l

§A¨º(1)~(6)ªº¨Ò¤l»P»¡©ú¡A¬O¥Ç¤F°¨§J«ä¥D¸qªÌ¸g±`§å§Pªº©Ò¿×¡u±Ð±ø¥D¸q¡v


>>(1) ¯u²z¬O¬Û¹ïªº¦Ó¤£¬Oµ´¹ïªº, ¦h¨«¤@¨B´N¬OÂÕ»~.

¯u²z¬O¬Û¹ïªº¡A¦ý¬Û¹ï¤¤¤]¦³µ´¹ï(¨Ò¦p¡G¤H·|¦º¤`)¡A¯u²z¥²¶·³z¹L¤£Â_ªº¹ê½î¨Ó¥[¥HÀËÅç¡A¯u²z¤S¦]¬°¸g±`¨ü®ÉªÅÀô¹Ò©Ò¨î¬ù¡F©Ò¥H¯u²z¦b¥Ò®ÉªÅ¬O¯u²z¡A¦b¤A®ÉªÅ¥i¯à¥²¶·¦h¨«¤@¨B¤~¯àÀËÃÒ¥X¥Lªº¯u²z¡A¤Ö¨«³o¤@¨B¡A¥Ò®ÉªÅªº¯u²z¦b¤A®ÉªÅ«o¬OÂÕ»~¡C³o¤~¬O¦X¥G°¨§J«ä°ßª«ÅGÃÒªk¹ï©ó¯u²z±´¨sªººë¯«¡C(°Ñ¾\¡m½×ÅGÃÒªkªº±Ô­z¤èªk¡nB.M ³Í±o¬¥¤Ò¡C¡m¦ÛµMÅGÃÒªk¡n®¦®æ´µ)


>>(2) ¨Æª«ªºµo®i¦³¤@­Ó±q¶qÅܨì½èÅܪº¹Lµ{
>>©Ò¥H§Ú§P©w¥xÆWªº²£·~¤É¯Å¤£·|¬O¤@­Óµu¼È¶¶§Qªº¹Lµ{, »Ý­n°²¥H®É¤é.

³o¤£¬O¼o¸Ü¶Ü¡H

¨Æª«ªºµo®i¦³¤@­Ó±q¶qÅܨì½èÅܪº¹Lµ{
¥L¥i¯à¬O­Óª½½uªºµo®i¹Lµ{¡A¤]¥i¯à¬O¦±½uµo®i¹Lµ{
ª½½uªk®i¹Lµ{¬O´`§Çº¥¶iªº¡A¦±½uµo®i¹Lµ{¬O·|¥X²{¶i¤@¨B°h¨â¨BªºÃþ¦ü°±º¢ª¬ºA

¦p¦¹µ¥µ¥........


>>¤@¯ë¨Ó»¡¤j³°¤W¹L¾Çªº¤H³£¨ü¹L¦è¤è¥j¨å¥D¸q­õ¾ÇªººëÅè,¶Â®æº¸ÅGµýªk«ä·QªºâÀ³³,

µM¦Ó«o³£¬O±Ð±ø¥D¸qªÌ


NO:109_114
HitCat ¡@©ó¡@2002/07/03 23:34
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷


TO: HITCAT

¤@°êªº¥ß°ê¤§¥»¥i¯à´N¬O·NÃѧκA, ©Ò¿×ªº¤å©ú¨R¬ð½×©M¦¹¤£µL·F¨t. ¦b¤@°êªº¸gÀÙ¹ê¤O¸û¸¨«áªº®É­Ô, ¥u¯à¾aºë¯«©M·N§Ó¨Ó¤ä«ù°ê¥Áªº¥Í¦s©M¾Ä°«. ¤T¥Á¥D¸q§Ú¤£¤F¸Ñ, ¦ý¬O§Ú·QKMT¤]¬O·Q¥Î¨ä­â»E¦@ÃÑ, «Ø³]¥xÆW, ¤£¯à¦]¬°¥xÆW²{¦bªº´I¸Î¦Ó§Ñ¤F¥L¦b¾ú¥v¤Wªº·N¸q. ²{¦b§õµ¥½÷ªº¥x¿W²z½×±q¼s¸q¤W¬Ý¤]¬O¤@ºØ·NÃѧκA, ¥Î¥H¤ä«ù¥xÆW¤H»P¤j³°ªº¤H¤f©M¦a°ìªºÀu¶Õ¬ÛÄvª§, ¹ï¥xÆW¤H±Ð¨|ªºÁÙ¤Ö¶Ü? ²{¦bªü©Ô§B¤å©ú¦b»P¦è¼Ú¤å©úªº¹ï§Ü¤¤³B©óµ´¹ï¤U­·, ¥i¥H»¡¤ñ¤¤µØ¤å©úÁÙ­n¤£§Q, ©Ò¥H¤¤ªF°ê®aªº©v±Ð³Ì¬°¨g¼ö, §_«h¥L­Ì´N·|¥Í¦sªº¨S¦³´LÄY©M¥Ø¼Ð. ¤j³°¥Ø«e¤w¸g·NÃѨì¦b·NÃѧκA»â°ìªº¯uªÅª¬ªp¤w±a¤F«Ü¦h°ÝÃD, ¦³«Ü¦h²z½×®a³£¦b§V¤O«Ø¥ß·sªº·NÃѧκA©M»ù­ÈÅé¨t, ¥i¯à¤]¬O¥H¤¤°ê¥j¥N­õ¾Ç«ä·Q¬°°ò¦, §l¦¬¦hºØ¨ä¥L¤å©úªºÀuÂI. ·s¥[©Y©M°¨¨Ó¦è¨È¨ººØ¥Á¥D»PÅv«Â·Qµ²¦XªºÅé¨î,±qµu´Á¨Ó»¡¥i¯à¸û¦³§l¤Þ¤O, ª½±µ¸ó¤J¬ü°ê¨ººØ­Ó¤H¥D¸q¸m¤W, ª÷¿ú²Õ¿ïªºÅé¨î, ­·ÀI¤Ó¤j. ¦L«×±µ¦¬¤F­^¬üªº·NÃѧκA, ¦ý¬O¸gÀÙ¤WÁÙ¸¨«á©ó¤j³°´N¬O¤@­Ó©úµý.

»¡¥yÃD¥~¸Ü, BBC³Ìªñ°µ¹L¤@­Ó½Õ¬d,½ÐÅ¥²³µû¿ï¤d¦~°¶¤H. ²Ä¤@°¶¤H¬O½Ö§A¥i¯à·Q¶H¤£¨ì,¬O°¨§J«ä.·R¦]´µ©Z¬O²Ä¤G, ª`·Nµû¿ï¤H³£¬O­^°ê¤H.

¤HµL§¹¤H, ¥Ñ©ó¨ä¦bªÀ·|¨î«×«Ø³]¤è­±ªºªÅ·Q²z½×³Qµý©ú«Ü¤£¦¨¼ô, ¥Ø«e¦bªF¼Ú©M«Xù´µ°ê®a¤¤,°¨§J«ä¥D¸q¤w¸g¦WÅA±½¦a, ¦b¤j³°¤@¯ë¥Á²³¤]«Ü¤Ö´£¥¦. ¬°¤°»ò­^°ê¤Hµ¹©ó¥L«ç»ò°ªªºµû»ù, ¬O¦]¬°¥L´¿¸g«ü¥X¤F¸ê¥»¥D¸qµo®iªì©l¶¥¬qªº«Ü¦h¹ú¯f, ²{¦bSIMON¬°¥xÆW¥¢·~¤u¤Hªº©R¹BµÛ«æ, 19¥@¬öªº¸gÀÙ¦M¾÷¶¥¬q, ¼Ú¬w¤u¤Hªº©R¹B§ó´dºG. °¨§J«äªºµÛ§@«ü¥X¤F³o¨ÇªÀ·|¤£¤½¥¿ªº°ÝÃD,¤Þ°_¤FªÀ·|¦U¬ÉªºÃöª`, ©Ò¥H²{¦b¼Ú¬w°ê®a¤~«Ø³]°_¤FºÖ§Q¨î«×, §ïµ½¤F¥¢·~¤u¤Hªº¥Í¬¡±ø¥ó. ¥Ø«e­^°ê°õ¬Fªº¤uÄÒ, ©M¼w°êªºªÀ·|¥Á¥DÄÒ, ¨ä«e¨­³£²`¨ü°¨§J«ä«ä·Qªº¼vÅT.
©Ò¥H§Úı±o¦è¤è¤å©úªº¤@­Ó¬ð¥XÀuÂI´N¬O²z©Êºë¯«, ¤£¨«·¥ºÝ, ¤£·|¦]¬°¬Y­Ó²z½×SHORTCOMING ¦Ó±N°_¥þ½L§_©w, ¤HÃþªºµo®i¥v¤]¬O¤£Â_±q¥¢±Ñ¤¤§l¨ú±Ð°Vªº¾ú¥v.

¦Ü©ó§A»¡ªºDOGMA, ¬O¹B¥ÎªÌªº¿ù»~. ±N19¥@¬öÃö©óªÀ·|¨î«×«Ø³]ªº²z½×, ­ì«Ê¤£°Êªº¥Î¨Ó«ü¾É20¥@¬öªº¹ê½î, µ²ªG¥i·Q¦Óª¾. ªF¼Ú©M¤j³°¥H«eªº¸gÀ٫س]Åé¨t¤£¬O¨Ó¦Û©ó°¨§J«ä¦Ó¬O¨Ó¦Û©ó¦C¹ç©M´µ¤j¹ç. ®]¤¤¤sªº«ä·Q¬O¤¤°ê©M¼Ú¬w«Ü¦h«ä·Qªº²V¦Xª«.

§Ú¦b¨Ò¤l¤¤©Ò¤Þ¥Îªº¨Ã¤£¬ODOGMA, ¦Ó¬O¤@ºØ­õ¾Ç¤u¨ã, ÄÝ©ó¤èªk½×, »P°¨§J«ä«ä·QµLÃö. ¶Â®æ¨à¦b¦è¤è­õ¾Ç¥v¤Wªº®õ°«¦a¦ì¤£¬O§A²³æ¤@§½¸Ü¥i¥H©Ù±þªº. ÀH«K¤@¥»Ãö©ó¦è¤è­õ¾Ç¥vªº®Ñ¤¤³£¦³¥Lªº¦W¦r.
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NO:109_115
THINKER ¡@©ó¡@2002/07/04 00:00
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

TO: ¸ô±ù

(1) ²£·~¥~²¾¹ï¥xÆW¤£§Q, ³o¬O¯¸¦b¥¢·~¤u¤H©M¬F©²ªº¨¤«×¨Ó»¡ªº¯u²z.
²£·~¥~²¾¹ï¥xÆW¦³§Q, ³o¬O¯¸¦b´M¨D·G»ù³Ò¤O©MÂ׫p§Q¼í,©Î¦³¤j¤¤°ê±¡Ãhªº§ë¸êªÌ¨¤«×¨Ó»¡ªº¯u²z.
³o¤~¬OÅGµýªk.

(2) §A¥u»¡¹ï¤F¤@¥b, ¦±½u«e¶i, «á¥b¥y¬OÃñ±Û¦¡¤W¤É. ¨Ã¤£¬O°±º¢.¬O¦b§ó°ª¼h¯Å¤Wªº­«´_. ²{¦b¥xÆWªº¥¢·~¤£¬O°±º¢, ¦]¬°¥¦ªº©Ê½è¤£¦P©ó±q¹A·~Âಾ¨ì¤u·~¹Lµ{¤¤ªº¥¢·~, ¦Ó¬O±q¤u·~ TOWARDS ªA°È·~¶i¨B¹Lµ{¤¤ªº¥¢·~.

(3) ²{¦b¥xÆW«Ü¦h¤H³£¬O±Ð±ø, ¤Z¹J¤j³°ªº¤H©M¨Æ,²Ä¤@¤ÏÀ³³£¬O¶Ì¥Ê©M¥i¯º.


NO:109_116
HitCat ¡@©ó¡@2002/07/04 05:05
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

NO:109_114ªº¶K¤å¤£¬O§ÚHitCat¼gªº¡C
½Ð±i¶K¸Ó¤åªº¤H»°§Ö¥X¨Ó»{»â¡C

NO:109_117
HitCat ¡@©ó¡@2002/07/04 05:25
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

To Thinker

°w¹ï§A¹ï¸ô²pªº¦^µª¡A§Ú«ØÄ³§AÁÙ¬O¦h½Í¸gÀÙ¡A¤£­n½Í­õ¾Ç¡C§AÁ|ªº¡uÅGÃÒªk¡v¥Î¥xÆW¸ÜÁ¿¥s°µ¡u½MÙT¡v¡C¤@­Ó¬ì¾Ç²z½×ªº«e´£¡A¬O­n¥i¥H³Q¤Ï»é¡]Karl Popper¡^¡C¹³§AÁ|ªº°¨§J«ä¥D¸q»P¿ëÃÒªk¡A®Ú¥»¨S¦³°µ¥X¨ãÅ骺³¯­z¡A©Î¬O¥i¥H³Q§á¦±¦Ó®M¥Î¨ì¥ô¦ó±¡ªp¡C´«¥y¸Ü»¡¡A®Ú¥»ºc¤£¤W¬O¤@­Ó¬ì¾Çªº³¯­z¡C

§A»¡¡G¡u²{¦b¥xÆW«Ü¦h¤H³£¬O±Ð±ø, ¤Z¹J¤j³°ªº¤H©M¨Æ,²Ä¤@¤ÏÀ³³£¬O¶Ì¥Ê©M¥i¯º¡v¡CWell¡A§Ú¤£¾å±o§A»{ÃѦh¤Ö¥xÆW¤H¡A¥i¥HÅý§A°µ¥X³o¼Ëªº§PÂ_¡C§A³Ì¦nÁ|¥XÃÒ¾Ú»¡©ú¡A¤£µM´N¤£­n¶Ã¦©´U¤l¡C

§Ú»{ÃѪº³\¦h¤H¥xÆW¤H¤@ÂI³£¤£±Ð±ø¡A¥L­Ì«i©ó°Q½×¡A¤]­P¤O©óºû«ù¨¥½×ªº¦Û¥Ñ¡C¥L­ÌÄ@·NÄ묹¦Û¤vªº®É¶¡»Pºë¯«¡A¨Ó°µ©^ÄmªÀ·|ªº¨Æ±¡¡C¸ô¼ù¥ý¥Í´N¬O¨ä¤¤¤@¦ì¡C§Ú»{ÃѪº¤¤°ê¯d¾Ç¥Í¤£¦h¡A¦ý¬O§Ú¨S¦³¹J¹L³o¼Ëªº¤H¡C


NO:109_118
THINKER ¡@©ó¡@2002/07/04 08:21
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷


TO: HITCAT

I APOLOGIZ THAT I DO NOT KNOW THE IDENTITY OF luli. OTHERWISE, I WILL HAVE UNDERSTOOD HIS COMMENTS IN A DIFFERENT WAY. MY LAST SENTENCE WAS WRONGLY TARGETED.

TO: LULI

I DO NOT KNOW HOW LONG YOU HAVE BEEN AWAY FROM MAINLAND. OTHERWISE YOU WILL NOT HAVE MADE SUCH ARBITARY CONCLUSIONS. IF DOGMAS ARE FOLLOWED FAITHFULLY, HOW COULD PRIVATE ENTERPRENEURS BE ALLOWED TO JOIN THE COMMUNIST PARTY RECENTLY?


NO:109_119
THINKER ¡@©ó¡@2002/07/04 08:24
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷


To HitCat:

Thank you for tolerating me for so long. I have learnt a lot from the dialogue.
This is my last post to your title. Wish you all the best. Bye.


NO:109_120
¤¤µØ¤I¤k ¡@©ó¡@2002/07/05 02:49
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

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NO:109_121
©«´µ¯S ¡@©ó¡@2002/07/05 08:37
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

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³o¤]¥s°µ¤¤°êªº¹ê»Ú±¡ªpªü,¥þ¥@¬É¤]¥u¦³¬ü°ê¥i¥H³o¼Ë,¨º¤¤°ê¦b
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³ÌÁo©ú¬Ý¥X¨ä¤¤¦³¶B,¦n¼F®`ªº¤¤°ê¤H­þ.

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NO:109_122
¤¤µØ¤I¤k ¡@©ó¡@2002/07/06 20:52
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

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NO:109_123
Taipei Student ¡@©ó¡@2002/07/06 21:15
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

¸gÀÙ§Ú­Ó¤H¬O¨S¦³¤°»ò¥i¥H¸m°Öªº¾l¦a¡A¤£¹L¨º»ò¦h±M·~ªº¥Zª«©M¸gÀپǮa¦ü¥G³£¹ï¤¤°êªº°]¸g©ê«ù­t­±ªººA«×¡AÃø¹D¬O°²ªº¶Ü¡C¡]§O¸ò§Ú»¡¥L­Ì§Ò§ª¤¤°ê¨º¤@®M¡^§Ú¤]¦h¤Ö¤F¸Ñ¤¤°ê²{¤µ­±¹ï·¥¤jªº§x¹Ò¦b©ó¦h¤è­±ªºÄ³ÃD¡AÀô«O¡A¤º³¡°ÝÃD¡A³h´I°ÝÃD¡AÁÙ¦³¶Å°È¦M¾÷¥H¤Îª÷¿Ä¦M¾÷¡A¤¤°ê¦³¤°»ò¦M¾÷¹ï¥xÆW¨Ã¤£¤@©w¦³¦n³B¡A¥xÆW¤H¤]¨S¥²­nµLªº©ñ¥Ú¡A¥u¬O¤¤°ê±N­±Á{ªººØºØ¦M¾÷¬O¤@­Ó¤w¸g¦s¦bªº¨Æ¹ê¡C

NO:109_124
¤¤µØ¤I¤k ¡@©ó¡@2002/07/06 21:55
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

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¥xÆW¥Á²³À³¥H¤½¥¿¡B«ÈÆ[ªººA«×¨Ó¦Ò¼{©Mµo¨¥¡A¤£À³¬°¬Y¬Y·NÃÑÆ[ÂI¥hù¦C¤@¨Ç¸ê®Æ¨Ó§@¬°®ÚÕu¡C¬ì¾Çªº¬ã¨s°ÝÃDªº¤èªk¬O±qÎ`Âø¡B¹s¸Hªºª«¥ó¤¤µo®i¥X³W«ß©Mµ²½×¡A¦Ó¤£¬O¥ý¦³½×ÃD¦A¥h§ä¦XÓ쪺®ÚÕu¡C

NO:109_125
Taipei Student ¡@©ó¡@2002/07/06 22:30
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

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­Ë¬O§A¨Ã¥¼±q¥¿­±¨Ó¦^µª§Ú©Ò´£¥Xªº°ÝÃD¡A§A©Ò³¯­zªº°ÝÃD¤¤§Ú¥u¦³¬Ý¨ì¨â­ÓÆ[ÂI¡A¨º´N¬O§A¤w¸g©Ó»{¤¤°ê­±¹ï¨ì§xÃø¡A¦ý§A»{¬°³o¬O¥i¥H¸Ñ¨Mªº¡A¦Ü©ó¦p¦ó¸Ñ¨M¡A§A¨Ã¥¼»¡¥X¤@­Ó¨ãÅ骺µª®×¡A«ÜÃøÅý¤H¤£ª½Ä±ªº·Q¨ì§A¬O¦b´À¤¤°êÅGÅ@¡A³o´N¬O§g©Ò¿×ªº¬ì¾Ç¡H²Ä¤G­Ó½×ÂI´N¬O§A»{¬°§Ú­Ìªº¬Ýªk¤£°÷¤½¥¿¡A³o¦ü¥G¨Ã¤£¬O°Q½×°ÝÃDªº¤è¦¡¡A­Y¬O¯uªº­n°Q½×©Î¬O°w¹ï¤@­Ó°ÝÃD°µÅG½×¡AÀ³¸Ó¥¿­±¦^À³¥L¤H´£¥Xªº°ÝÃD¡A¦Ó¤£¬O¥Î³oºØ°µ¸éªº³Û§ì¸é¨Ó©Ù¶Â§O¤H¡A«ÜÃøÅý¤H±µ¨ü¡C


NO:109_126
HitCat ¡@©ó¡@2002/07/07 23:42
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

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NO:109_127
¨ÖÄæ ¡@©ó¡@2002/07/15 14:51
Re:¸gÀپǤH³ø¾É¡G¤¤°ê·¥¦³¥i¯à¦b¥¼¨Óªº¤C¨ì¤K¦~­±Á{¶Å°È¦M¾÷

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²{¦bÃö©ó¤¤°ê°ê¤O¤À爲¨â¬£¡A¬J¦³¨â©¤ªº¤]¦³¦è¤èªº¡AÂù¤è°ò¥»¤W¦Û»¡¦Û¸Ü¡A¦U¦³¤@¤j°ïÆ[ÂI¡B½×¾Ú¬Ýªº¤HÀY©ü¸£º¦¡A¦Ó¥B°}½u²V¶Ã¡A¬J¦³¤¤¦@ªº¸gÀÙ±M®a¦³ªº°ª¥s¦M¾÷»{爲­n¤£±¤¤@¤Á½T«O´N·~©M°ê¥ø¡A¤]¦³¦è¤èªº¸gÀÙ±M®a¬Ý¦n¤¤°ê»{爲¤¤°ê20¦~¥i±µªñ¬ü°ê¡C³o­Ó»¡¤¤°ê¸gÀÙ§Y±N±Y¼ì¡A¨º­Ó»¡«öÁʶR¤O¥­»ù¤¤°ê°ê¤O¶W¹L¤é¥»¡A§A§åµû¥L¤£«ÈÆ[¡A¥L§åµû§AÀ¹¦³¦â²´Ãè¡C¤¤°ê¸gÀÙ¹ê¤O¨s³º¦p¦ó¹ê¦b·d¤£²M·¡¡A§Ú¦ô­p¥²¶·µ¥¨ì10¦~«á¤~¯à¨£¤À¾å¡C³Ì¥i¯ºªº¬O¤£¤Ö°ª¤HÁ`¬O³o­Ó¦³¥i¯à¡A¨º­Ó¥i¯à¤]¦s¦b¡A¯u¬O¼o¸Ü¡I½Ö¤£ª¾¹D¥i¯à©Ê¤£¤î¤@ºØ¡AÁ٥ΧA»¡¡A©Ò¿×±M®a¤£´N¬O­n¦b¨Æ¥óµo¥Í«e°µ¥X§PÂ_ªº¤H¶Ü¡C§Ú»{爲¦³´XÂI­È±oª`·N¡G
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