經濟自殺?看中時的鳥報導才會讓我想自殺!!
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Auspices  於 2002/08/07 16:58
經濟自殺?看中時的鳥報導才會讓我想自殺!!

看到中時的王姓記者寫說紐約時報的報導說陳水扁的講話是經濟自殺(如下文)。我實在很懷疑紐約時報怎麼會有這種見解,於是上了紐約時報的網站察看。結果根本發現了這則所謂「經濟自殺」的新聞(下下文)。不過內容根本不是紐約時報以為陳水扁刺激中國的講話是經濟自殺,而只是在論述中國對於陳水扁批評的要點。紐約時報關於陳水扁這次講話和台灣經濟影響的報導,實際上是相當樂觀的(如下下下文)。真不知「經濟自殺」是如何說起?你中時記者以為只有你們看的懂英文啊!?這真證明了一件事:中國時報根本是人民日報台北版,看了只會污辱人類的智商。

請用力轉寄,謝謝!!

紐約時報:刺激中共 無異經濟自殺



  王綽中/台北報導 據「紐約時報」發自北京的報導說,台灣經濟陷入低潮而其它市場又開拓不力,當前對中國大陸市場依賴正不斷加深,陳水扁「一邊一國」和「公民投票」刺激中共的講話,無異是經濟自殺。



  中共國務院台辦發言人李維一五日在批評陳水扁講話時表示,陳水扁的講話受到影響的是台灣經濟,受到損害的是台灣民眾的切身利益。

  上週六陳水扁表示,舉行台灣獨立的公民投票,是台灣住民的「基本人權」,台海兩邊事實上是「一邊一國」。

  中共可能採取象徵性的行動,來表達對陳水扁的不滿;中共已經計畫在未來數週,在台灣對岸地區舉行軍事演習。

  目前台灣的出口有四分之一在中國大陸,中國大陸已成為台灣出口商品最大也成長最快的市場,台灣主要廠商幾乎一半在中國大陸投資,總額超過五百億美元。

  台灣經濟正處於低潮,中國大陸是它最大的市場而其它市場又不振之際,陳水扁刺激中共的舉動,可能對自己即使不是政治自殺,也是經濟自殺。

A Distracted China Issues Censure of Taiwan Chiefs Remarks
By CRAIG S. SMITH with KEITH BRADSHER


EIJING, Aug. 5 ?Distracted by back-room maneuvering over leadership changes here, China has offered little more than a boilerplate response to aggressive statements on relations with Taiwan by its president, Chen Shui-bian, and has suggested that his own constituents may provide the strongest censure of his remarks.


Li Wei-yi, a spokesman for the Taiwan Affairs Office of Chinas State Council, issued a statement denouncing Mr. Chens comments. Mr. Li said that the comments would have ramifications for Taiwans economy and that they would probably have ramifications for the personal interests of Taiwan residents as well.

Mr. Chen said on Saturday that holding a referendum on Taiwans independence was a basic human right and that, in reality, there was one country on each side of the Taiwan Strait.

China has long threatened to use force against Taiwan if it declares outright independence or refuses to agree eventually to reunify with the mainland.

China may yet take some symbolic action to express its displeasure over Mr. Chens remarks; war games are already planned on the coast opposite Taiwan in the weeks ahead.

But Chinas condemnation of Taiwans president centered on an increasingly unavoidable reality in the decades-old standoff between the governments in Beijing and Taipei ?that Taiwans economy is fast becoming dependent on the mainland.

Already, one quarter of Taiwans exports go to China, the biggest and fastest-growing market for the islands goods, and nearly all of Taiwans major businesses now have investments on the mainland, totaling more than $50 billion.

With the islands economy at low ebb and the economies of its other markets slowing, goading China into punitive action could be economically, if not politically, suicidal for Mr. Chen.

Rebukes were swift. Taiwans biggest opposition party, the Nationalist Party, which ran Taiwan until 2000, was harshly critical of him, saying he was turning the pro-independence policies of his Democratic Progressive Party into government policy despite having promised to pursue a centrist course in office.

In this context, it is very risky, said Steven S. F. Chen, Taiwans top diplomat in the United States until 2000 and now a national security expert at the National Policy Foundation, the Nationalist Partys research center.

Members of President Chens administration, meanwhile, scrambled to discount the significance of his remarks.

Do not overinterpret Mr. Chens comments, Tsai Ing-wen, chairwoman of Taiwans Mainland Affairs Council, said before leaving on a hastily scheduled trip to the United States to reassure American officials that the island is not pursuing a major shift in strategy. Taiwans China policy has not changed.

The United States has long counseled Taiwan against declaring independence, though China renewed its accusation today that Washington has emboldened Taipei with diplomatic support and continued weapons sales.

President Bush said last year that he would do whatever it takes to help Taiwan defend itself against the mainland.

In fact, Mr. Chens comments, while the strongest since he took office two years ago, did not go beyond the language of a 1999 resolution on Taiwans future adopted by his Democratic Progressive Party.

Mr. Chen had not repeated that language since he took office, when he promised not to declare statehood or to push for an independence referendum if China would abandon its threat to use force against the island.

But Beijing has not renounced that threat, and some experts believe that Mr. Chen may be taking advantage of Chinas distraction ahead of the Communist Partys coming congress, at which crucial leadership changes will be decided, to put the language back on the table, pleasing pro-independence forces in Taiwan and putting some pressure on Beijing.

Andrew Yang, the secretary general of the Chinese Council of Advanced Policy Studies, a research center in Taipei, said Mr. Chen appeared to be calculating that China would pay attention to Taiwan only if he speaks strongly.

Taiwans Market Falls as Ties With Beijing Worsen
By KEITH BRADSHER


TAIPEI, Taiwan, Aug. 5 ?Taiwans stock market fell sharply today in response to deteriorating relations with China, but the dispute is unlikely to affect either sides economy or American companies and consumers unless it becomes much more serious, corporate executives and economists said here today.

A speech on Saturday by President Chen Shui-bian of Taiwan, who described China and Taiwan as separate countries and endorsed legislation allowing referendums on issues including Taiwans sovereign status, provoked an angry response today from Beijing, in a confrontation that frightened shareholders.

Share prices began tumbling at the opening today and continued falling when Beijing denounced the speech just before noon as a brazen provocation. Taiwans benchmark stock index closed down 5.8 percent. Trading limits here prevent each companys shares from falling more than 7 percent in a single day.

You could see today everyone wanted to sell shares, said Margaret Lin, a fund manager at the Truswell Securities Investment Trust Company here.

Chinese officials clearly expected the market effect in Taiwan of their criticisms and couched their remarks in terms that would appeal to business executives, who tend to be the strongest advocates of closer integration with the mainland.

The ramifications will be felt by Taiwans economy, and the damage will be sustained by the personal interests of Taiwan compatriots, said Li Wei-yi, the spokesman for the Taiwan Affairs Office of Chinas State Council, at a hastily convened news conference in Beijing. This will lead Taiwan toward disaster.

While the comments from Beijing and Taipei continue a decades-long political divide, the economies of Taiwan and China are increasingly intertwined, with at least 500,000 of Taiwans 23 million people now living on the mainland.

Complex webs of technology companies in particular now assemble components and computers on both sides of the Taiwan Strait for all of the big American computer vendors, especially Dell. They have turned Taiwan and China together into the worlds largest producers of everything from certain desktop computer parts to notebook computers.

Business leaders pointed out that previous verbal skirmishes in 1996 and 1999 have had little effect on factory production or foreign investment, and said that the current confrontation also does not yet pose a serious problem.

Fundamentally, I dont think really it is, unless things get worse, said Frank Huang, the chairman of the Taipei Computer Association and the chairman of Power Chip, Taiwans third-largest manufacturer of computer chips.

But he added that with the slowing American economy already affecting chip demand, this is not the best time for what Chen Shui-bian said ?its not helping.

Richard Vuylsteke, the executive director of the American Chamber of Commerce in Taipei, said that the groups members were not alarmed. People are kind of used to a lot of rhetoric on both sides, he said. Basically for us, its business as usual.

The New Taiwan dollar, the currency here, slipped only as much as 0.7 percent today, to 33.95 New Taiwan dollars to the United States dollar, after the central bank spent an undisclosed sum of United States dollars to buy its currency. The central bank is in a strong position to buttress the currency because it has been intervening heavily in recent weeks to prevent the New Taiwan dollar from appreciating quickly.

Until today, there had been upward pressure on the Taiwanese currency, which would sap the competitiveness of Taiwanese exports, as Asian stocks held up better than American and European equities.

A few Chinese companies stocks were also down today, notably businesses in Xiamen, a large port near southern Taiwan that stands to benefit if China and Taiwan ever allow direct shipping routes and flights. But markets in China mostly shrugged off the hostile words being exchanged, as Chinas economy is not only larger than Taiwans but also viewed as much less vulnerable to disruption if an actual crisis were to occur.

Yet Chinas export sector has prospered even as much of the rest of the economy has stagnated, notably state-owned enterprises that still dominate many older industries. China needs a healthy computer industry in Taiwan as much as the United States does, said Peter Kurz, the chief executive of the Insight Pacific Investment Research, a consulting firm here.

The United States is dependent on it, but China is dependent on it as well, he said.

Fearing Chinas growing economic importance within Taiwan, President Chen urged Taiwanese businesses last week to invest more in Southeast Asia instead of China. The recent trend has been quite the opposite, and China, seeing President Chens concern, is unlikely to punish or restrict the mainland operations of Taiwanese technology companies, Mr. Kurz said, adding that China realizes that enticing businesses is the most effective way of winning the hearts and minds of the Taiwanese.



NO:845_1
藍蟹  於 2002/08/07 17:32
Re:經濟自殺?看中時的鳥報導才會讓我想自殺!!

Great Job! 抓的好!

該記者是在人格自殺、誠信自殺
該記者如此厚顏無恥,想必還不至於在生命上自殺吧?

不過,還真該咧。


NO:845_2
蘭陽醒獅團  於 2002/08/07 17:44
Re:經濟自殺?看中時的鳥報導才會讓我想自殺!!

真是可惡的中時混蛋....
公然造謠...

最近的統媒實在太誇張了。
這種低程度的,實在讓人輕視,藐視。

我祝他們的後代可以永遠在共產黨底下
寫文章。


NO:845_3
中時亂報  於 2002/08/07 18:26
Re:經濟自殺?看中時的鳥報導才會讓我想自殺!!

中國時報根本是在台灣的大亂報

這種亂報不時地提供民眾錯誤訊息
尤其是在政治消息上
特別會製造假輿論
很奇怪.新聞局都不做事嗎?


NO:845_4
戒嚴惡勢力  於 2002/08/07 19:21
Re:經濟自殺?看中時的鳥報導才會讓我想自殺!!

>>這種亂報不時地提供民眾錯誤訊息
>>尤其是在政治消息上
>>特別會製造假輿論
>>很奇怪.新聞局都不做事嗎?


新聞局除了局長,其餘都是統派,
中時亂報你顯然不知以前戒嚴勢力仍然在政府裡囂張,
套句外省親中反台人士最喜歡說的:總統是給阿扁幹假的


NO:845_5
蘭陽醒獅團  於 2002/08/07 20:37
Re:經濟自殺?看中時的鳥報導才會讓我想自殺!!

Auspices兄..

忘了跟你說聲謝謝。


NO:845_6
阿德  於 2002/08/07 21:16
Re:經濟自殺?看中時的鳥報導才會讓我想自殺!!

可以幫忙翻譯一下嗎
這樣比較好轉貼
大家也比較看的懂
甘蝦!!!

NO:845_7
Cave  於 2002/08/07 23:21
Re:經濟自殺?看中時的鳥報導才會讓我想自殺!!

昨天一看到中時的報導就立刻去看這篇原文了,
不過統媒記者還有另一種手法, 就是改成紐約
時報引述xxx說 技巧性的變成好像是該報的立
場一樣 ....

NO:845_8
50979  於 2002/08/07 23:44
Re:經濟自殺?看中時的鳥報導才會讓我想自殺!!

我也是一看到這篇報導,就立刻上網看原文,
原文其實相當的有深度,不管是在政治、經濟層面上,都顯示了知名媒體的功力。
結果被工商時報一改,變成了紐約時報中國版。
真是相當的令人不齒,
直接寫信到中時抗議。

NO:845_9
shawn  於 2002/08/08 00:16
Re:經濟自殺?看中時的鳥報導才會讓我想自殺!!

要跟紐約時報反應一下,紐約時報想必會發出嚴正抗議。

到候就憑著這個抗議,可以讓更多的台灣人看清統媒真面目。


NO:845_10
pico  於 2002/08/08 00:18
Re:經濟自殺?看中時的鳥報導才會讓我想自殺!!

從上下文看,經濟自殺這部份應該是紐約時報記者解釋中國反應背景時加上去的評論,並不是中國自己的說法。重點是要說明這次中國反應比較特別的地方:

Mr. Li said that the comments would have ramifications for Taiwans economy and that they would probably have ramifications for the personal interests of Taiwan residents as well.

「李維一說,(陳水扁)這些話將會對台灣經濟造成影響,也會對台灣住民的個人利益造成影響。」

在引述這段話之前,紐約時報開宗明義就說中國的反應大致還是「樣板」(boilerplate) 說法,也就是沒有新意:

Distracted by back-room maneuvering over leadership changes here, China has offered little more than a boilerplate response to aggressive statements on relations with Taiwan by its president, Chen Shui-bian, and has suggested that his own constituents may provide the strongest censure of his remarks.

「中國為了領導班子的繼承問題正忙於暗盤折衝,對台灣總統陳水扁針對中台關係作出的強勢談話只能提出樣板反應,並指出對陳水扁最強的批評可能是他自己的選民。除此之外,中方並沒有什麼特殊說法。」

然後文章解釋事件背景,包括點出「未來數週」將有軍事演習(中國時報看到這裡當然是眼睛一亮),但接著還是回到台灣對中國的經濟依賴,認為這才是中方反應的主軸,稍微有點新意的地方。這部份隨著就說到「經濟自殺」的問題:

With the islands economy at low ebb and the economies of its other markets slowing, goading China into punitive action could be economically, if not politically, suicidal for Mr. Chen.

台灣經濟正處於低潮,中國之外的其它市場又陷入遲緩,刺激中共一但引起懲罰行動,即使不會造成陳水扁的政治自殺,也可能是經濟自殺。

這裡有幾個有趣的問題。第一,紐約時報記者似乎是認同中國的經濟依賴論的。至少他們為中國舉出了具體的根據,有助於他們的讀者的理解。但從一開始的整體評斷看,顯然他們覺得這是中國方面忙於內鬥,才有這種阿Q式的反應:我們不用殺陳水扁,他的選民自己就會殺他!這種細微的文字藝術中國時報的王綽中應該是不會有意願去看到的。

其次,原文是說:「一旦引起懲罰行動,可能......」即使王綽中的內文至少也是說「可能」是經濟自殺,到了標題卻變成無條件的「無異經濟自殺」。再其次,原文說「如果不是在政治上,也會在經濟上形同自殺」,難道經濟自殺不一定導致政治自殺,所以不比政治自殺嚴重?再其次,我也不曉得陳水扁如何「經濟自殺」:難道泛藍會立法規定一旦如何如何扁嫂的財產要一律充公?

另外名詞 economic suicide 與形容詞 economically suicidal 是有一些分別的。名詞才能說「經濟自殺」,形容詞的話只能說有「經濟自殺」的意味(上文譯為「形同經濟自殺」恐怕還太強了點)。這就像說某人是 suicidal 是說他有自殺傾向,並不是說他已經有自殺的實際動作。這些文義細微之處,以中國時報的外國、中國語文程度,當然也是沒有能力也沒有意願去處理的。

總結來說,紐約時報記者的話本身就有語病,只能說是為了解釋中國的說法,拼湊出來的準評論,並不是想要認真說出來的重點。中國時報為什麼看到這裡眼睛又一亮,認為挖到寶,外人就不便猜測了。


NO:845_11
pico  於 2002/08/08 00:26
Re:經濟自殺?看中時的鳥報導才會讓我想自殺!!

抱歉。「台灣經濟正處於低潮」這句譯文忘了加引號。而且最後部份應該改成:「即使沒有政治自殺的問題,也可能會使陳水扁形同經濟自殺。」


NO:845_12
小明  於 2002/08/08 00:54
Re:經濟自殺?看中時的鳥報導才會讓我想自殺!!

謝謝pico的精準的解說,

我覺得欄主要批評時,應該更精準些。因為我看到同意欄主意見的人也沒有說出理由
理由很重要。


NO:845_13
babibous  於 2002/08/08 01:05
Re:經濟自殺?看中時的鳥報導才會讓我想自殺!!

謝謝pico兄,看來中時專門找些懂得半調子英文的人來做英譯吧∼∼

NO:845_14
Cave  於 2002/08/08 01:29
Re:經濟自殺?看中時的鳥報導才會讓我想自殺!!

不只 New York Timies, 其實 Washington Post 或多或少也是認同經濟依賴中國論,
這無可避免, 事實是我們真的比過去更依賴, 這是我們需要苦思走出一條好路的地方,
如何保持自己的競爭優勢而能運用中國的人力與市場, 而不是從此被中國綁住, 是當
務之急 ...
話回到媒體, 有時候, 部份外國媒體仍會受到統媒論調的影響, 以為台灣民眾真的多
數對此說法並不欣賞 ...
不只新聞媒體, 許多雜誌都無時無刻不在受影響, 兩個月前一本討論 Mobile Computing
的雜誌刊出一篇特別報導是該作者應邀訪問台北, 寫下台北紀行(他第一次到台灣),
他一方面很訝異於台語與北京語無法互通外, 更訝異的說似乎台灣的民眾偏好與中國
統一, 這其實是接待他的 host 以及媒體給他的印象, 這些無形影響是很可怕的 .....

NO:845_15
巴茲光年  於 2002/08/08 01:41
Re:經濟自殺?看中時的鳥報導才會讓我想自殺!!

中時王綽中的這篇「報導」和紐約時報的原文,早先我也看了,也覺得非常令人光火。可以說,這是篇面目全非的譯稿,而且,我猜,中時的編輯台大概也動了不少手腳、當了幫兇。

如果我沒猜錯,中時的譯稿,就其標題和內文來看,它所假想的閱讀對象,大概主要是台灣的股民,或是對經濟現況不滿的人。並且希望從這些對象身上激起共鳴,對扁政府形成輿論壓力。但,對問題本身,中時除了沒有帶給我們更多的瞭解,反而製造了更多麻煩、扭曲的誤解。

現在,我也來分點工,將原文的末四段作點翻譯。因為,我猜,紐約時報該篇報導這個部分的主要目的,大概是要透過「專家」的陳述提出「揣測」,向英文世界的讀者「說明」,阿扁為什麼要選擇在這個時點發表「一邊一國」論?至於這些「揣測」能不能成立,那就另當別論了。

譯文有誤,也請朋友們不吝指正。

In fact, Mr. Chens comments, while the strongest since he took office two years ago, did not go beyond the language of a 1999 resolution on Taiwans future adopted by his Democratic Progressive Party.

事實上,雖然陳先生(阿扁)的講話是他自兩年前就職以來最強烈的(一回),但(這些話的內容)並未超出1999年由他所屬的民進黨的「台灣前途決議文」中所採用的措詞(內涵)。

Mr. Chen had not repeated that language since he took office, when he promised not to declare statehood or to push for an independence referendum if China would abandon its threat to use force against the island.

自他就職時承諾如果中國願意放棄以武力對付台灣的威脅,他就不會宣佈台獨或推動獨立公投後,陳先生即未再重提上述論調。

But Beijing has not renounced that threat, and some experts believe that Mr. Chen may be taking advantage of Chinas distraction ahead of the Communist Partys coming congress, at which crucial leadership changes will be decided, to put the language back on the table, pleasing pro-independence forces in Taiwan and putting some pressure on Beijing.

但北京未嘗宣示放棄該威脅,同時,某些專家相信陳先生可能可以在決定重要領導班子換手的中共黨代表大會召開前,因中國方面心有旁騖而得到好處。也就是,把這些論調再擺上桌,既可討好台灣的擁獨勢力,也可以對北京施加壓力。

Andrew Yang, the secretary general of the Chinese Council of Advanced Policy Studies, a research center in Taipei, said Mr. Chen appeared to be calculating that China would pay attention to Taiwan only if he speaks strongly.

位於台北的一個研究中心,中華民國高等政策研究協會的秘書長楊念祖指出,陳先生看來是在盤算,只有他把話說得強硬點,中國才會把注意力放在台灣。


NO:845_16
巴茲光年  於 2002/08/08 01:45
Re:經濟自殺?看中時的鳥報導才會讓我想自殺!!

抱歉!改個錯,第三段譯文中第一行的「同時,某些專家相信」,好像應改成「因此,某些專家相信」才對。

NO:845_17
Lancu  於 2002/08/08 12:16
Re:經濟自殺?看中時的鳥報導才會讓我想自殺!!

應翻譯成 <自傷的> 或 <具自戕性質>或<具自戕傾向的>.


原文:
With the islands economy at low ebb and the economies of
its other markets slowing, goading China into punitive
action could be economically, if not politically,
suicidal for Mr. Chen.

較忠於原意的翻譯是:

<台灣經濟處於低潮,(台灣對外經貿的)其它市場的經濟又放緩之際,
將中國刺激到它採取懲罰式行動(的程度),對陳先生來說如果不是
政治上, 也可能經濟上,會是自傷的。>

就語意(semantic)來說,這裡的 suicidal 通常用來意指 (不智的).

中國時報把這句話翻作 <刺激中共 無異經濟自殺>, 我們把它翻作英文
就成為<Goading Chinese Communists is nothing different from
economic suicide> 就可以看出語意被中時扭曲了多少. 原文卻是
<...could be ...suicidal.>

比較以下兩句話:
1. She could be beautiful
2. She is a beauty

句1意思是:她(在某種時空條件下)有可能/可以 是美麗的.
句2意思是:他是美人.

中國時報就是將第一句硬栽成第二句,並將她(China)硬栽成他(Chinese
Communists.)

依中時這個慣例:英語的China一定翻譯成<中共>,我們不禁要問,
China Times (中時的英文名) 是不是應翻成<中共時報>???



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