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NO:1117_1
HOBA ¡@©ó¡@2002/12/01 22:05
Re:½Ð°ÝÃö©óÁú¾ÔªÅ¾Ô¤¤ªº¤¤°êªÅ­x

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http://taiwantp.net/cgi/roadbbs.pl?board_id=1&type;=show_post&post;=392
http://taiwantp.net/cgi/roadbbs.pl?board_id=1&type;=show_post&post;=551

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NO:1117_2
caf ¡@©ó¡@2002/12/02 07:54
Re:½Ð°ÝÃö©óÁú¾ÔªÅ¾Ô¤¤ªº¤¤°êªÅ­x

A USAF veteran fighter pilot who had went thru the aerial baptism of WW2, the Korean war & the Vietnam conflict once commented -- given the proper training, you can turn a student pilot of any race, color, etc... into a well trained, capable fighter pilot.

To be objective & not affected so much by political views, that means sufficient training plus experience CAN BE A KEY TO SUCCESS in aerial combat.
At least one other POSSIBLE KEY would be by chance when some or all circumstances are in your favor: say, the other guys plane suffered mechanical or electronical malfunctions -- when certain ACTS OF GOD come into the combat scenario, true, even the less seasoned rookies can have a chance to win & make his day.

I suppose the PLAAF combat pilots during the Korean War did not have sufficient time to go thru some decent training (any objection folks?) -- as most except possibly a handful of ex-Nationalist defectors -- entered the conflict under 2 years of training. The Korean War started in 1950 & ended 1953 -- that didnt give Communist Chinese pilots too much time to train or to obtain the skills required in dogfights.

Basing on above arguments, (1)they didnt have time to train or complete their training & (2) the only pilots that had the experience were either Russians who had last fought the German Luftwaffe; or possibly ex-Nationalist defectors.
It seems fair then, to conclude that the reasons for success by PLAAF pilots during the Korean War were a result of (A) ACTS OF GOD -- i.e. not so much that they had the necessary skills but their opponents were really in bad shape
either because of uncontrollable factors --e.g. malfunctions with their planes or they were just not up to standard during that time (B) the records were not so much acheived by genuine PLAAF rookies but most likely by either former Nationalist (i.e. RoCAF) defector pilots (who had fought the Japanese before) or even by Russian mentors.

In a nutshell, all the PLAAF can claim, looking back in history, is that they had real guts -- not that they had real skills (agreed, folks ?)
-- and what real success they had in knocking down USAF & UN veteran pilots should attribute mainly to ACTS OF GOD so that there is really nothing much for the PLAAF to brag or boast exact in the ACTS OF GOD -- or they might call it luck.


NO:1117_3
caf ¡@©ó¡@2002/12/02 08:10
Re:½Ð°ÝÃö©óÁú¾ÔªÅ¾Ô¤¤ªº¤¤°êªÅ­x

Of course, the PLAAF probably by now had learned from history, that guts alone with skills can be suicidal. The 2nd wave of Kamikazie Japanese pilots didnt achieve much success against the onslaught of the US pacific fleet mainly because -- objectively speaking, by that time, most of their skilled pilots had perished in the 1st wave of attacks on the US naval fleet. The 1st wave of Japanes pilots were seasoned as well as patriotic; they were mostly volunteers -- i.e. they had both skill & guts in sinking US shipping. However, after they died out in the earlier campaigns, the Jap. govt realized the manpower shortage & forced/ drafted rookie pilots as volunteers to carry out the same mission -- the result we all now know -- WERE PURE DISASTER ! Not only did most died without sinking a ship, but most didnt even get a chance to close up on US battle carriers. The US knew their tactics by then & managed to intercept & shoot them straight out of the skies before they can approach a carrier.

Another interesting point also, planes with lower speed can sometimes best those with higher speeds -- or able to hold their own.
Thus RoCAF F-104s didnt have an overwhelming advantage over PLAAF MiG-19/J-6s in 1967 aerial combat -- those Starfighters have a Mach2 capability.
Also, Pakistani pilots were able to knock down Indian MiG-21s with F-86 Canadair Sabres -- again, though the Fishbed had also a Mach2 capability.

Some of you folks also suggested that, for example, the F-CK-1 IDF, although slower than the Su-27, but with its BVR capability & in future, with pilot helmet-mount missle firing device & other upgrades, can become another type in the RoCAFs inventory that can challenge the Flankers; although currently that role is reserved for the Mirage 2000-5s. Of course, pure math & theory is only 1 side of the story, if the RoCAF can also have ACTS OF GOD in its favour, then even their F-16s & F-5s can become a Flanker killer -- agree ?


NO:1117_4
VOR ¡@©ó¡@2002/12/03 03:21
Re:½Ð°ÝÃö©óÁú¾ÔªÅ¾Ô¤¤ªº¤¤°êªÅ­x

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NO:1117_5
¬yª]«ß®v ¡@©ó¡@2002/12/03 07:46
Re:½Ð°ÝÃö©óÁú¾ÔªÅ¾Ô¤¤ªº¤¤°êªÅ­x

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NO:1117_6
TG2000 ¡@©ó¡@2002/12/03 11:40
Re:½Ð°ÝÃö©óÁú¾ÔªÅ¾Ô¤¤ªº¤¤°êªÅ­x

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NO:1117_7
¤p¤ò ¡@©ó¡@2002/12/03 11:53
Re:½Ð°ÝÃö©óÁú¾ÔªÅ¾Ô¤¤ªº¤¤°êªÅ­x

ªü©iù¥X²{¦bÁú¾Ô¶Ü? :p

NO:1117_8
flak ¡@©ó¡@2002/12/03 12:56
Re:½Ð°ÝÃö©óÁú¾ÔªÅ¾Ô¤¤ªº¤¤°êªÅ­x

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NO:1117_9
¬yª]«ß®v ¡@©ó¡@2002/12/03 13:02
Re:½Ð°ÝÃö©óÁú¾ÔªÅ¾Ô¤¤ªº¤¤°êªÅ­x

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NO:1117_10
caf ¡@©ó¡@2002/12/03 13:26
Re:½Ð°ÝÃö©óÁú¾ÔªÅ¾Ô¤¤ªº¤¤°êªÅ­x

Mr. Wanderer Lawyer, fact of the matter is, it is possible but rather in unusual situations -- that rookies can best seasoned & well-trained veterans.

Using a human development illustration: a baby doesnt know how to protect or defend himself as much as a toddler (e.g. a 2 year old); likewise, a toddler is not as agile as a youth; ... etc. In a likewise manner, under normal circumstances, a new pilot may not see the dangers of certain manouvers & unable to plan his tactics properly... thus giving the experienced opponents the opportunity to take full advantage of such faults.

Of course, the rookies can stand a chance if under untypical situations where the supposedly seasoned pilots really had a bad day, or due to reasons beyond his control -- as mentioned in above conversations, such as faulty mechan/electronical functions on his plane.. or visibility, weather conditions, etc.

In history, a classic example may be the Hebrew story of David (a youth) versus Goliath (a war veteran) -- where David truly bested the giant opponent -- I suppose both the surprise elements & Ill call it the act of GOD truly caused the table to turn around in this case.

I suppose for more practical concerns with regards to air combat, we may need to consult the other experts of this forum, including those who may have flown actual missions, such as, I believe, Mr.Big Wild Wolf ? et al...
Hope if they can share their views when they have a moment.


NO:1117_11
Skywalker-Luke ¡@©ó¡@2002/12/03 17:01
Re:½Ð°ÝÃö©óÁú¾ÔªÅ¾Ô¤¤ªº¤¤°êªÅ­x

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NO:1117_12
¤p¥i¼Ö ¡@©ó¡@2002/12/03 22:34
Re:½Ð°ÝÃö©óÁú¾ÔªÅ¾Ô¤¤ªº¤¤°êªÅ­x

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NO:1117_13
¿ß¿ß ¡@©ó¡@2002/12/03 23:14
Re:½Ð°ÝÃö©óÁú¾ÔªÅ¾Ô¤¤ªº¤¤°êªÅ­x

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NO:1117_14
SJCA ¡@©ó¡@2002/12/04 04:03
Re:½Ð°ÝÃö©óÁú¾ÔªÅ¾Ô¤¤ªº¤¤°êªÅ­x

News article from SINA.com

http://content.sina.com/news/36/10/3361041_1_b5gif.html


NO:1117_15
SJCA ¡@©ó¡@2002/12/04 04:21
Re:½Ð°ÝÃö©óÁú¾ÔªÅ¾Ô¤¤ªº¤¤°êªÅ­x

Is it true or ?

NO:1117_16
abc ¡@©ó¡@2002/12/05 11:43
Re:½Ð°ÝÃö©óÁú¾ÔªÅ¾Ô¤¤ªº¤¤°êªÅ­x

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NO:1117_17
cobrachen ¡@©ó¡@2002/12/05 12:02
Re:½Ð°ÝÃö©óÁú¾ÔªÅ¾Ô¤¤ªº¤¤°êªÅ­x

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NO:1117_18
Áp¦X±±¨î ¡@©ó¡@2002/12/05 13:04
Re:½Ð°ÝÃö©óÁú¾ÔªÅ¾Ô¤¤ªº¤¤°êªÅ­x

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NO:1117_19
¥b¾å¥Í ¡@©ó¡@2002/12/05 14:22
Re:½Ð°ÝÃö©óÁú¾ÔªÅ¾Ô¤¤ªº¤¤°êªÅ­x

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NO:1117_20
flak ¡@©ó¡@2002/12/05 15:14
Re:½Ð°ÝÃö©óÁú¾ÔªÅ¾Ô¤¤ªº¤¤°êªÅ­x

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NO:1117_21
Áp¦X±±¨î ¡@©ó¡@2002/12/05 15:36
Re:½Ð°ÝÃö©óÁú¾ÔªÅ¾Ô¤¤ªº¤¤°êªÅ­x

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NO:1117_22
ra ¡@©ó¡@2002/12/05 15:55
Re:½Ð°ÝÃö©óÁú¾ÔªÅ¾Ô¤¤ªº¤¤°êªÅ­x

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