學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革
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朱立熙 於 2003/06/14 03:21 | |
學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
Taipei Times 六月十二日第九版刊出的拙稿,中文版將於近日刊登於自由時報副刊,敬請指教! Taiwanese should adopt Japans love of cleanliness This is an article I have long wanted to write, but I could never find the appropriate time. And then work would intervene, causing me to put the project aside. When SARS was rampant, my thoughts constantly returned to this idea, and how I wished that someone among the epidemiologists appearing on television would raise the point. But they always focused on SARS prevention and urging people to cultivate good habits of hygiene. Virtually no one mentioned conceptual change, which was regrettable. Rick Chu (朱立熙) is editor in chief of the Taipei Times. 後記: |
朱立熙 於 2003/06/14 03:26 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
中文版必須等「自由時報」副刊登出來後,才能轉貼到此版上,敬請包涵! |
Lancu 於 2003/06/14 04:30 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
「潔癖」,台語叫作「清氣相」,其中,「相」發音是siuN3(鼻母音,第三聲). 台灣習俗,初一十五要打掃;筆者家中長者,初一十五都要將”灶腳”清洗一翻 另外,日本時代有清潔日的規定.戰後,在台灣某些地方仍留傳.這個或許可以 |
ace 於 2003/06/14 04:52 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
Just as japanese copy German thoroughness, we should copy the Japanese. Just as German once despised Japanese, we can bear Japanese contempt for Taiwan a little longer. Our CDC can learn from their homepage: http://www.mhlw.go.jp/topics/2003/03/tp0318-1i.html |
mei 於 2003/06/14 17:03 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
朱立熙 先生 您這一篇舉例周醫師來日造成的風波而提醒國人省思的 英文報導 寫的太好了 的確像日本那樣 謹慎一點比較好 尤其清潔衛生牽涉到健康 也就是生命問題 有什麼東西比生命還可貴呢 當然在一個不尊重生命的價值的地方的人們 是無法了解的... 「潔癖」 很有可能是中文的「外來語」 PS.我覺得有個地方想向您請教 像Lancu 先生說「潔癖」,台語叫作「清氣相」,
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mei 於 2003/06/14 17:06 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
訂正 ↑懇請賜教 |
ace 於 2003/06/15 00:52 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
「潔癖」 = sauberkeit sauber = 清潔 keit = 志向] Die Form -keit wird anstelle von -heit stets verwandt, wenn die Historically, -heit was the The morphological complexity of the preceding adjective does not, as far |
ace 於 2003/06/15 01:18 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
[神經質] = nervositat Nervosit酹 [神經 ] = nerve [-sitat] Etymology: New Latin -stata, from Greek -statEs one that stops or steadies, from histanai to cause to stand -- more at STAND 1 : stabilizing agent or device 2 : instrument for reflecting (something specified) constantly in one direction |
朱立熙 於 2003/06/15 03:41 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
謝謝 Lancu, Mei, Ace諸位的指正,讓我受益良多。 其實,本文的目的,只是想要改變中文的「文字障」加諸於台灣人的錯覺, 如果不相信的話,不妨去看看受過日本教育的我們的父祖輩們,多少都有我 |
Lancu 於 2003/06/15 07:36 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
更正一下,我在上面寫了:”「潔癖」,台語叫作「清氣相」”, 其實,並不完全正確. 台語的「清氣相」,語意是正面的(褒獎的)或是中性的(描述的), 反之,中文的「潔癖」是略帶負面的語意. 說別人「有潔癖」是說別人有點病態,並有要別人「別那麼乾淨」的語意. 說別人「真清氣相」,是同意或讚美別人的清潔習性. 奇怪的是(或許,並不真那麼奇怪),「潔癖」事實上沒辦法翻成台語, 台語裡,好像沒有將清潔看成是壞事的說法;要造也造不出句子來. (給mei:有意思的是,「過頭清氣相」,日文是「過度の清潔志向」) 台灣的中國話(國語)有發展出「很愛乾淨」的說法,來表達台灣人 |
Lancu 於 2003/06/15 09:37 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
我很能感受朱先生的第二篇貼文: 個人對這件事已經不安,在意了很久,大約是從9年前短居中壢市時開始的, 我曾想過,如果有一天有一個人要聽我如何改進台灣(特別是北部)的
我想,如果要在台灣建立起像日本的清潔習性,我們除了一方面應該向 我上面寫的初一十五的清洗和「拼掃」在台灣鄉鎮裡,仍是很常見, 台灣人長者將骯髒看成是「見笑代」的習性,我們年輕一代應該傳遞下去.
朱先生寫的關於受過日本教育的我們的父祖輩們的生活習慣,我們可以見證. 我們應該向他們學的,不只是生活習性而已;他們的腳踏實地,說了就 愛清氣的人,都有美感,並願為美付出的.重建「清氣相」的習性, 台灣有太多的堅持小孩必須勤於補習和準備考試的家長,但是極少有 我家長者常說「要清氣,當然嘛愛骨力」;對清氣的美感,有願意付出
我覺得台灣的城市對植物的利用意識,幾乎是不存在的.室內和陽台植物 再者,有了植物,也要花時間和它”對話”以便讓心靜下來,仔細欣賞 植物往往會宊顯出它所在的角落空間,引導人進入自家的各個不同的空間.
台灣因為污染,人多,空間少,温熱,潮濕等等,造成污垢容易積蓄, 再者,即使是個人很清氣相,但是,一經人口密度的擠壓,人和人之間 可以作的立法規定是,各大樓必須定期洗淨外牆和內庭;各店家應該 願不願意定期花錢去將自家(社區大樓)的門面整理清氣,就要看 |
yl 於 2003/06/15 09:38 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
I do not like the term, 「潔癖」, for its negative connotation. I tried to find the suitable English term for it without much success. However, I tend to think that someone with 「潔癖」 may be a hypochondria, or one washes incessantly his hands---which is some kind of psychological affliction. I think the term, 清氣相, instead, is a much more appropriate term to describe the Japanese trait that Mr. Chu exalted in his article. I would hope that Mr. Chu would contact the Liberty Times to use 清氣相 in the Chinese version of his article rather than 潔癖. |
mei 於 2003/06/15 11:27 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
朱立熙 先生 謝謝您的說明 我又看了一遍內容 仍然讚嘆不已 好文 只是 您說[讓台灣人不要被「視潔癖為病態」的中國人所誤導。] 如您所說 從反省sars事件中 我們的觀念的確應該要改 這點您道出了很重要的point 非常贊同 您說 我會繼續努力理解您的用意的 |
mei 於 2003/06/15 11:57 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
Lancu 桑 看完您的貼文 心有戚戚焉 不只在外表上[清氣]是一種美 是一種禮貌 這幾天 收到一封伊妹兒 內容說日本人的店整個都很乾淨 當然包括廁所 |
朱立熙 於 2003/06/15 13:49 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
轉錄一封今早剛收到的信,他是我的高中校長,現定居中國蘇州、八十一歲的朱天健先生。 他是徐匯中學在台灣的創校校長。他知道我寫這篇文章的目的,是想要推動「清氣相」成為 社會運動。台灣人加油,讓我們這一代都能找回父祖輩們的「清氣相」稟性。 ____________________________________________________________________________ June 15, 2003. Dear Rick, How happy I was after reading your wonderful English article yesterday! (The Chinese edition was still not legible.) Only you who know Japan and Korea well and are intimate with both the good and bad sides of Chinese can write such a good article. It is psycological, and convincing with touching examples. You have done a good job as a media leader, and a promotor of good movement. I hope many will answer to your call and start to move. The sleeping lion needs some predecessors to wake it up. I congratulate you and I hope you will write more leading articles in the future. Your old friend, Michael Chu, Sr. |
mei 於 2003/06/15 16:49 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
朱立熙 先生 老實說 看到您的文章 真的打動人心 覺得這樣的好文應該要多一點 很感謝您 我一直很喜歡日本人的愛乾淨的個性 但是很不好的消息就是 近年 外國人大量來日 您藉由文章,推動「清氣相」成為社會運動之舉 真的令人感動 |
tree 於 2003/06/15 17:08 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
日語的潔癖, 如果用在 life style,如朱先生所提的 cleanliness上, 負面意味確實有一些. 但若用在例如描述某人的 justice上, 感覺則完全正面. |
Viewer 於 2003/06/15 17:43 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
「癖」一字,據字典其原意為「腹中積食不能消化之病」,是為病名,故從病字旁。但其引申意有 「固定不移之意」,比較接近於習性(Propensity)、本性(Natural tendency)或嗜好(Habbit),應無 負面之義才是。 張潮在幽夢影中說:「花不可無蝶。山不可無泉。石不可以無苔。水不可無藻。喬木不可無藤蘿。 |
恆愛台 於 2003/06/15 18:21 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
我阿爸在日本教育下.........自小就教育我們做代誌愛【清氣相】∼ 意旨【做事乾淨俐落】【不貪不取】【講究衛生】.........等等 而這些特質正是支那文化唯一欠缺的地方∼也對稱台北城在全國各地已制服SARS疫情後!......... |
ORCL 於 2003/06/15 19:12 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
【SARS台北情】依然不改中國官僚文化,真是【乞食講仙話】,【毋見笑賣煙酒,處處嫖】。 |
蘭陽醒師團 於 2003/06/15 19:31 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
這一欄所可以引導出的台灣心靈革命會很強大, 任何人包括公部門的,私領域的,都可以在此 想到無數的創意。 台灣論作者,小林善記先生要從台灣的歐吉桑找出 台灣難道有比日本更好的條件?並沒有。 因為我們遭受中國人的文化強暴,思想強暴,還有包括宋 我們遺忘了好的東西,我們有比日本社會還要更大的挑戰, 我建議立刻找尋。 |
野蠻人 於 2003/06/15 23:42 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
TO 蘭陽醒獅團 日本也沒多好啦,日本現在也是被一些傳統所束縛 不過如果沒國民黨來台的話 |
恆愛台 於 2003/06/16 08:47 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
【清氣相】與【辣煞生】............... 就我所知的,除了家父外,只要遇到受日本教育的老年人∼總會自我要求【清氣相】! ★那意味著透早沿著大街一路拼掃的勞動精神,為社區鄉土福祉努力,為家園清氣無私奉獻............ ★反觀每每提到【清國奴】∼他們總是以【辣煞生】來形容,意味著自私自利∼貪功諉過∼提錢來見∼ 如此對稱!正可看出李登輝先生的自我要求∼及那麼多中國人因此自尊受傷害∼而恨他那麼優秀老實! |
計者敵 於 2003/06/16 11:10 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
請教朱立熙: 我比較龜毛。道德潔淨也是很重要的。 你公開朱天健先生的信,事先有否徵詢朱先生同意? 請回答是或否,這樣我才能論斷你的為文處事。 在網路上具名與隱身發言是有極大的不同的。尤其是對擁有平面媒體發言權的人而言。 |
恆愛台 於 2003/06/16 12:00 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
這樣的自白。。。。。不能讓你滿意嗎? 【他知道我寫這篇文章的目的,是想要推動「清氣相」成為 我所知的父祖輩諸多對【清氣相】的自我要求與支持.........即使朱立熙疏忽未告知其恩師∼ |
計者敵 於 2003/06/16 13:49 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
恆愛台急什麼?幹嘛強出頭?什麼自白? 我的父祖輩重言諾,語出必行,不用花言巧語騙人感情,用語純樸,句句實在。最重要的是父祖輩的「勇於面對,解決問題」才是現今我們該學習的。他們那個年代沒有我們現在的「文字遊戲」。 恆愛台,你是今天才混網路的小白?藏不住壓不下蠢動的心。沒讀到我是在等待當事者的回答才要作論斷嗎? 請你回頭看看臺灣被多少沒有原則的眾多「恆愛台」公眾人物所騙,他們作文比賽不輸你我。如果你還停留在文藝少年階段,想不出有那些人,告訴我一下,我會花時間點通你。 嚐蜂蜜的同時,小心蜂叮。 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
朱立熙 於 2003/06/16 13:51 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
「計者敵」謝謝你的指正,不過我想提醒你: 第一,這裡不是「媒抗版」,你「踢錯館」了。 第二,你不知道我跟朱校長的關係,我不需要公開在此回答你這問題。 第三,你這段話:「在網路上具名與隱身發言是有極大的不同的。尤其 第四,你並不需如此敵視記者,我朱某人在新聞圈內的風評自有公斷。 再次謝謝你的指正,下次請選對了館,再踢! |
恆愛台 於 2003/06/16 14:22 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
【沒讀到我是在等待當事者的回答才要作論斷嗎?】........... 這就是我強出頭的地方!閣下又算老幾?........... 【請你回頭看看臺灣被多少沒有原則的眾多「恆愛台」公眾人物所騙,】.......一堆人對我的風評! 就是您最鴨霸!........一口咬定我是【沒有原則】?那您有啥原則可言? 挑朱立熙打筆戰?......這種小白∼才是令人厭惡所在!我有對人嗎?我對事有感?版規不許嗎? |
acoco 於 2003/06/16 16:02 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
【沒水準兼沒衛生】這是一句媽媽的話,【沒水準】:無知,【沒衛生】:無德;全句的意思就是,無恥 這句話可以用來印證我們的社會曾經是有知又有德的社會,為何這些主流的社會價值會消失,我想也不用費心去討論;往事已矣,不足道 【中國肺炎】發生在台灣是件既悲且痛的恥辱,這本是不應發生的事卻又發生 【中國肺炎】發生在台灣,誰能救我們???????? 【腸病毒】發生在台灣,誰能救我們????????? 想想腸病毒如何預防?注意衛生,多洗手,【中國肺炎】也是,所有傳染病的預防都是如此;也就是說自己救自己 亡者致意,生者知恥;藉由【中國肺炎】我們應該認真的對待自己愛護他人 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」 台灣習俗,初一十五要打掃;筆者家中長者,初一十五都要將”灶腳”清洗一翻(包括”土腳”-地板)以及清洗並以陽光晒碗盤及餐具.這習俗在台灣留傳已久. 我阿爸在日本教育下.........自小就教育我們做代誌愛【清氣相】∼意旨【做事乾淨俐落】【不貪不取】【講究衛生】.........等等 我的父祖輩重言諾,語出必行,不用花言巧語騙人感情,用語純樸,句句實在。最重要的是父祖輩的「勇於面對,解決問題」才是現今我們該學習的。 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 以上句句金句良言,也就是說這些主流的社會價值,在各位的呼籲下慢慢建立中 台灣人失去太多,迷失太久;重建主流社會價值的關鑑時刻,沒有退縮的藉口,只有前進的決心 台灣人已當奴隸四百年,【中國肺炎】中國再次強姦台灣一次,該是反擊的時刻 各位,身為台灣精英的你們也該是為祖國台灣奮鬥的時後了,化口水為力量帶領後輩前進 |
Luke-Skywalker 於 2003/06/16 17:15 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
http://news.yam.com/cna/culture/news/200306/200306150009.html 陳維昭:後SARS時代應養成抗疫新生活習慣 (中央社記者翁翠萍台北十五日電)國立台灣大學校長陳維昭最近聆賞音樂會時,發現過去國人在音樂會中場休息時段習慣出現此起彼落的咳嗽聲沒有了,當然是因為SARS的咳嗽症狀令人敬而遠之,他認為,由此可見不好的習慣可以改,像在各種場合習慣要咳嗽,忍一忍就沒有了,SARS的確帶給國人新思維與新生活習慣。 所謂新思維,陳維昭認為,國人面對SARS時,很多想法有問題,例如醫護人員的子女在幼稚園或中小學被排斥,被隔離的人也被排斥,這些都是不對的,正確想法是關心自己就是幫助別人,關懷別人也是幫助自己,還有管理好自己不出問題也很重要。 陳維昭希望大家瞭解,被隔離者其實是為大家犧牲,幫助我們更安全的生活,不但不應排斥,還應心存感謝,例如鄰居若有人隔離時,可幫他買生活用品和報紙雜誌等,使其隔離的生活能方便,對醫護人員子女,更要因其他們的父母為我們犧牲,應給予關心、尊重和欽佩。 由於SARS,人們生活也與過去不一樣,陳維昭提醒大家未來不僅要有新思維,也要有好的新生活習慣,最重要的是對個人的健康管理,過去生病時才量體溫、戴口罩,以後都應該常做,不要隨地吐痰,多洗手,注意個人衛生,咳嗽時要把口遮住,避免直接對著別人,盡量不要在密閉空間活動,營養要均衡,這些都要養成為日常生活中很自然的習慣。 陳維昭說,時常量體溫可以提早發現身體異常,如果覺得身體有發燒或不妥狀況時,就要常常戴口罩,尤其到公共場合更要戴,避免將病菌傳染給別人,這不但是幫助別人,也可避免被別人傳染到不知什麼病菌病毒,也等於是保護自己。 他認為,人們應建立類似家庭醫師的就醫習慣,現在人們如果感冒,往往到和平醫院看一下,可能又到仁濟醫院看一下,也許再到台大醫院看一下,萬一有傳染病時較難掌控,他建議國人在還沒有那麼多家庭醫師時,可找信賴的醫師固定就醫,有什麼問題可與固定醫師商量。陳維昭表示,過去肝炎流行時,國人養成「公筷母匙」的生活習慣,對人們健康的維護幫助很大,近年腸病毒流行,造成的死亡不比SARS少,其實,好的生活習慣可以減少細菌與病毒的感染,國人應該趕快建立防疫抗疫的新思維與新生活習慣。 |
計者敵 於 2003/06/16 22:34 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
朱立熙, 關於「潔癖」與「神經質」的「文字障」問題,你並沒有直接回應前面認真網友的疑問,這是我看輕你的原因之一。 再來,我對你以前的開欄內容和回應態度印象壞透了,現在更加深我的看法,只會用「遷託」。 沒錯,我敵視臺灣的「新聞」記者,尤其是想在多媒體得利的「新聞」記者。 尊重你對我「踢館」的看法,我會另行在本周末在「媒抗版」開欄,向你挑戰,希望你能前往回應。 >>>你說對了,我敢用本名在網路或平面媒體上發表,就足以證明我的「道德潔癖」比你高。 還是老套,哈哈!「道德潔癖」是在勇於認錯,不會「遷託」。 |
計者敵 於 2003/06/16 22:43 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
恆愛台小白, >>>一口咬定我是【沒有原則】?那您有啥原則可言? 我沒有說你沒有原則,我說眾多「恆愛台」公眾人物,是把「恆愛台」當形容詞用。 不過,現在我可以說:你不用大腦。 |
恆愛台 於 2003/06/16 23:07 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
計者敵 大哥 在此公眾場合下您說一個出入頻繁網友【恆愛台】是一個形容詞?而且我所知的【恆愛台】網名, 我對一個邏輯因果觀念有問題的人,常會連想到對面土匪國的產物,所以我坦白說對您批評龍應台那篇 ★另外,如我是朱立熙先生,一為與題意無關,二為挑釁意味濃厚,三為譏笑謾罵【遷託】等等....... 星期六∼我預期您可以對著一片空白的牆壁∼大呼朱立熙無數聲∼仍是一片孤寂?........ |
acoco 於 2003/06/16 23:09 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
計者敵兄 需要如此劍拔弩張嗎 |
acoco 於 2003/06/16 23:52 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
計者敵兄 記者,誰不賭爛,但是,願意當同志的夥伴,為何偏要拒人千里之外 以記者為敵,是以為非作歹的記者為敵,對於正派的記者還是要給予鼓勵 【新聞夜總會事件】牛伯,愛台桑發起,台日魏總主筆再推一下,茶黨多了多少同志 我們在此努力的半死,如果能喚醒一些媒體人的良知,將我們的理念傳播出去影響力更大 朱立熙,本人沒慨念,也不想了解他 不過他說過一句話覺的還不錯【要當記者就不要拿錢】;他老兄敢說應該做的到 看看時下的記者一手領報社的薪水,一手收受恩客的黑心錢,朱立熙還是應該給予掌聲的 至於開欄回應的問題你老兄也是差不多【徘徊在「中國茅坑」與「西式抽水馬桶」間的龍應台 】 眾家兄弟姊妹給你回了一堆老兄你也沒回,朱立熙,是不是也可以用這句話回你呢? 【再來,我對你以前的開欄內容和回應態度印象壞透了,現在更加深我的看法,只會用「遷託」】 大家的目的都是為台灣好,各退一步明日相見,還是朋友 我們都欠KIOI一個公道,這個想法0603他就提了,只是反應不佳 |
朱立熙 於 2003/06/17 00:08 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
Dear 版主: 我以開欄人的身份,請求您將此一欄題刪除。因為自從「計者敵」來鬧場以後, 坦白說,以我今天身為媒體主管的地位,我不需要在網路上再沽名釣譽,或如「 對不起各位,再見啦! |
恆愛台 於 2003/06/17 00:19 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
計者敵 你實在是.......................太讓人氣憤啦! |
十六 於 2003/06/17 00:21 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
何必呢? 有時吵嘴也是拋磚引玉的一個方法,若心態正確,何不樂之? |
acoco 於 2003/06/17 00:24 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
愛台桑 這個朱老大的脾氣好像和我們差不多 讓他加入【火爆三人組】好了 |
mei 於 2003/06/17 00:31 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
一對一的事,說到退出「台灣茶黨」,真的太誇張了 >>因為我的舞台已經夠多、也夠大了,我宣布從此正式退出「台灣茶黨」的所有網站。
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恆愛台 於 2003/06/17 00:40 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
{{{這個朱老大的脾氣好像和我們差不多 讓他加入【火爆三人組】好了}}}........... acoco小兄弟 這位大哥才是我們模仿的對象啦!............他如退出茶黨∼真的是台灣派網站的損失! mei 我不懂!...........您是叫歐吉桑我莫管他人雪上霜?我哪有瞎搞ㄚ~~~ |
acoco 於 2003/06/17 00:49 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
愛台桑 氣話啦!朱老大不會退出的 站上有一堆「自由人」看著朱老大的表現 退縮不是他的脾氣,等著看吧! |
恆愛台 於 2003/06/17 00:54 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
站上有一堆「自由人」看著朱老大的表現 他是TAIPEI TIMES的總編輯啦..........不是自由時報啦! 唉∼∼∼是我錯了嗎?..........好啦!好啦!是我的錯啦!我不該離題和計者敵抬槓啦!!! 把好好的【清氣相】搞成【辣煞生】....希望朱總編大人大量繼續支持台灣派眾生!年幼無知欠栽培! |
acoco 於 2003/06/17 00:58 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
愛台桑 TAIPEI TIMES的總編輯兼自由時報國際新聞組主任 |
計者敵 於 2003/06/17 10:37 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
朱立熙認為用真名在網路發言比較有「道德」「勇氣」 http://61.218.2.5/ |
emode 於 2003/06/17 12:25 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
This thread is a text-book case of a Chinese style debate. We see this over and over again in Taiwans political arena, thanks to so-called 5000 years of great Chinese culture. Its a shame that the discussion was completely drifted. Way to go, the above. |
transfer 於 2003/06/17 13:58 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
acoco 於 2003/06/17 13:45 Re:徘徊在「中國茅坑」與「西式抽水馬桶」間的龍應台 計者敵兄 mei兄 →不過要切記這裡是互動式溝通!!!! 這句話應該是mei兄說的 mei兄無法容忍朱立熙漠視互動,確又允許計者敵兄沒有互動;邏輯上說不通
→而既然網友沒有指名您作答,或非您不可的話,您沒有疏失,不需抱歉. 沒錯,那計者敵兄非要預設立場要求朱立熙回答;邏輯上也說不通
計者敵兄同樣的話朱立熙也可以對你說;邏輯上還是說不通
「朱立熙」只是一個網友名稱,既然是網友只能對事,也就是文章,「朱立熙」文章寫不好可以修理他 如果因為「朱立熙」是報社總編輯所寫的文章就要不分青紅皂白的修理他,有失公道 「朱立熙」也是茶黨的一個網友,要將身份加諸於身,就是私心惹的禍 【學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革】→這是網友「朱立熙」開的欄 【是否可以藉由此次支那肺炎橫禍來提升我國的衛生水準? 】→這是網友「KIOI」開的欄 相同的文章為何不修理「KIOI」獨鍾「朱立熙」呢?只因「朱立熙」是報社總編輯剛好是你我討厭的媒體人 我也有私心,看兄台寫的一篇好文,下手也只是點到為止,計者敵兄我覺的你對「朱立熙」網友欠一個公道 |
ORCL 於 2003/06/17 14:14 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
>「朱立熙」文章寫不好可以修理他 此點不認同,因為不是造謠的文章,所以沒有必要。 「朱立熙」文章,是提昇大家的觀念,認同與否是每個人的領受都有不同。 |
acoco 於 2003/06/17 14:15 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
ORCL兄 打個比方 |
mei 於 2003/06/17 14:18 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
acoco 先生 我無意要與您爭執,若有令您氣氛不好的地方,請海涵.您所指得我會虛心接受,好好思考. 不過,有件事,請讓我說明一下. 1.我不認識「朱立熙」是誰,直到最後有人說他是什麼地方的總編輯之類偉大的人物. 2.我無意修理偉大的人物「朱立熙」,如果您有仔細看我討論的內容的話,應該知道我用了多少禮貌. 3.我是抱著來這裡學習的心態來的,您說的[修理]二字,是否過頭了呢. 4.很對不起,我沒有讀「KIOI」開的【是否可以藉由此次支那肺炎橫禍來提升我國的衛生水準? 】那 5.來這裡討論,不應把生活中什麼頭銜之類的,拿到這個言論平等的地方吧. 6.關於[私心]二字,大家反省吧! |
Lancu 於 2003/06/17 15:24 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
說真的,今早看到這欄,真覺得很難以理解. 在一個論壇上,應該是看事(言論)不看人.朱先生 我實在想不出計者敵君的思路和立基點在哪裡.我很 要是有人以正當方法為台灣作事來為他個人取得利益或沽名釣譽, 我們的社會需要人,不需要聖人;對一個為台灣作事的人, 私心不一定是壞事,母親救孩子是私心的偉大表現, 我不知道,朱先生來這是不是有目的;這不重要,重要的是, 朱先生在這欄的論點絕對是台灣社會目前很需要深思的. |
mei 於 2003/06/17 16:03 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
acoco 先生 謝謝您提到「KIOI」開的【是否可以藉由此次支那肺炎橫禍來提升我國的衛生水準? 】欄,讓我知道. |
恆愛台 於 2003/06/17 17:45 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
其實朱立熙先生的用心,不過是想喚醒時下年輕網路朋友,他們的祖父母輩,曾經教育過如朱先生此輩分年紀,一些已被年輕人遺忘的珍貴的【清氣相】,來象徵意味對事情的執著,【打破砂鍋問到底!】 如文中提到的馬偕醫生感染sars後到日本旅遊,日本方面一路追蹤他所到之處,決不含糊地消毒隔離, 對稱國民黨的教育方式,含糊馬虎不清不楚∼事關生死之際,台北的中國官僚還在考量其自身前途名分, 實在是令人做噁!................ 當然一個立意善良,用心良苦的媒體人,希望做到網路族廣為轉貼,自我教育,(本文稿費捐做SARS防疫基金,並歡迎轉載)這等關心鄉土的腹腸,卻被計者敵當眾羞辱質疑?請問是不是令當事人及一旁稍有良知的台灣派人士,不禁跳出來打抱不平!將【清氣相】的美意隨意糟蹋成【辣煞生】的惡意?真是令人不齒,計者敵此種小白不問是非尊重,但求挑釁爽快打自己名氣!這他媽的算什麼玩意嘛? |
蘭陽醒師團 於 2003/06/17 21:07 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
記者敵,你不需要這樣。 偏離主題的討論也不好。 |
計者敵 於 2003/06/18 01:01 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
上面的討論非常好。 transfer提出的看法我有意見,因為朱立熙沒有回答網友請教的問題,且入罪於我「鬧場」。或許有人同意朱立熙可以不理會網友的疑問,但他大可不必小題大作。我注意的是他的「姿態」沒有誠意。 我無法當「朱立熙」只是一個記號,忘掉他是新聞工作者的身份,因此我特別提出一向被媒體忽視的「隱私權」問題。 若認為我只是惡意攻擊朱立熙,歡迎到媒抗版討論。 |
Cynthia 於 2003/06/18 01:34 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
計者敵兄 媒抗版上有人已對你開砲。你在另一欄題中回話說,你「已經詞窮.....」其實 建議你去多讀讀書,等到知識水平較高以後,再來挑戰朱立熙一樣的知名人物。 據我所知,以朱立熙的稿費身價,他絕不會浪費他寶貴的賺稿費時間,在網路上 |
ace 於 2003/06/18 01:34 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
野蠻人 於 2003/06/15 23:42 Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 日本也沒多好啦,日本現在也是被一些傳統所束縛 日本現在也開始有不少脫序行為 (只要在日本有待上十年以上的台灣人,應該可以同意我的話) -------------------------------------------------------------------- [フリーター亡国論] 今や完全に市民権を獲得してきたフリーター、ものの本によると全国でフリーターの数は400万人とも云われています。かつては格好いいとされていたフリーターも、時代の変化とともに望まなくてもフリーターにならざるを得なくなり、しかも脱フリーターが難しくなってきているのが現状のようです。決して若者は働きたくないのではなく、社会構造の変化がそれを余儀なくさせているとのこと。今やフリーターから脱したいと云う若者も増加し、そして彼等の希望がなかなか叶わないのも事実です。フリーターの期間の経験、スキルは通常再就職の際の良い判断材料にはならいようです。特殊な例ではフリーターをしている間に得た技術を再就職の時に生かせる例も僅かながらあるようですが、大半はあまり雇い主側から良い目では見られないようですね。 ----------------------------------------------------- |
Lilly 於 2003/06/18 04:51 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
我大概猜出來「計者敵」在本欄鬧場的原因了。因為開欄的文章全文是英文,他可能一個字都看不懂(除了中文標題之外),於是見笑之餘對朱立熙踢館。所以啊,等中文版出來之前,夠他這個沒讀多少書的人去查字典了。 |
計者敵 於 2003/06/18 09:54 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
Lilly, 看不懂英文或日文不是羞恥的事,不應該是被嘲弄的話題。 看來你是英文至上主義者,我第一次看到朱立熙的標題「Taiwanese should adopt Japans love of cleanliness」,就是覺得不對勁,現在還是,但就是說不出來,你可否解我迷惑? 譚恩美說她母親的英語表達意思非常清楚自然,但她的朋友只聽懂一半或八九成,甚至跟本聽不懂。不知道這是不是我感覺不對勁的原因。 請要批評炮轟我的人移駕「媒抗版」,那邊也有人一直勸我該好好讀書了。 |
轉貼 於 2003/06/18 14:49 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
『媒抗版』有人貼出中文版了 James Lin ﹍﹍﹍﹍﹍﹍﹍﹍﹍﹍﹍﹍﹍﹍﹍﹍ 「觀念變革」——學學日本人的潔癖與神經質 日期: 2003-06-11 很早以前就想寫這篇文章,但一直沒能找到適當的時機,然後工作一忙就耽擱了下來。SARS肆虐期間,文章概念在腦子裡迴繞不斷,當時多麼希望每天在電視上聯播的抗疫專家能有人提起,但他們的主題都只圍繞在抗煞,以及呼籲國人「養成衛生習慣」……,幾乎沒有人談到「觀念變革」的話題,實在有些可惜。 如果說這次的SARS肆虐能讓台灣人學到什麼教訓,或是能引導觀念變革的話,我認為「學學日本人的潔癖與神經質」,恐怕才是對台灣人最重要、也最有價值的東西。但這需要從「觀念啟蒙」的基本教育做起。 在華文世界與華人的認知裡,潔癖的「癖」,一直被認為是一種「病態」,是「不正常的」、「非理性的」,也是「不健康的」。 神經質則因為有「神經」兩個字,而常被「神經兮兮地」看待,雖然程度上還不到被當「神經病」的地步,不過在一般華人的認知裡,兩者並沒有太大的差別。 神經質的人跟「有X癖」的人一樣,在中國人的認知裡,都不算「正常的」或「理性的」。這除了文字迷障造成的錯誤認知外,還有文化與民族性的差異。 在日本人的認知裡,潔癖與神經質就絲毫沒有「負面」的意義,反而被認為是「認真」與「執著」的象徵,是鍥而不捨、追根究柢的求學精神與做事態度,一般日本人甚至認為潔癖與神經質是做人的基本「美德」。 由於如此的文化與認知差異,在華人世界裡幾乎沒有人敢公開承認「自己有潔癖」,或是承認「自己是個神經質的人」,因為公開說出來之後,必然被別人當「怪胎」、甚至是「痟e」看待,而會遭隔絕於群體之外。 相較於中文世界的負面意義,以及日本社會的正面肯定,英文裡的「潔癖」(neurotic passion of cleanliness 或 fastidiousness)與「神經質」(nervosity 或 nervousness)則都算是中性的字眼,並沒有被當做「病態」(mania),頂多認定潔癖是吹毛求疵的、挑三撿四或難以取悅的,神經質則是緊張焦慮,如此而已。 但是,有潔癖或神經質的人有錯嗎?那倒未必。只要自己的緊張焦慮或自我要求「勿施於人」或造成別人的不快,就不會有「對或錯」的問題。這是自我要求相對高於別人的一種性格特質,對自己有「較高標準」的處事原則,這並沒有錯;會出錯的反而是那些渾渾噩噩、凡事馬馬虎虎的庸俗之輩,或是中國人從五四運動以來所稱的「差不多先生」。有潔癖或神經質特質的人,就是不容許馬虎與草率,或「差不多就可以」的做事態度。 華文世界的人會把潔癖當病態,多少顯示了那種得過且過的蒙混心理,這也是中國之所以「不進步」、迄今仍是落後國家的主因。從這次中國蒙蔽SARS的疫情,導致港台深受其害的經驗,再次證明了這個「沒有潔癖」民族的劣根性。 十多年前,我曾經寫過一個有潔癖的韓國人的成功故事,願與大家分享。他是南韓國營「浦項鋼鐵」(相當於台灣的「中鋼」,但規模為中鋼的三倍,是世界上最大的單一煉鋼廠)的創辦人朴泰俊。 朴泰俊早年隨父親赴日經商,在日本完成中學與早稻田大學機械系的學業,在日本求學期間,形成他一絲不苟的性格。當年為了躲避美軍的轟炸,他曾疏散到鄉下住了一段時間,在鄉下目睹農婦從田裡回家,洗淨一身的泥濘才下廚做飯的情景,讓他得到寶貴的經驗,也成為他日後推動「洗澡品管論」的契機。朴泰俊籌辦浦項鋼鐵廠時,就將他追求完美、徹底與潔癖的性格特質發揮到極致。 1970年代末期韓國紡織品外銷達到巔峰之際,有一次朴泰俊到美國訪問時去逛一家百貨公司,尋遍所有樓面的賣場卻找不到一件韓國製的成衣,後來才發現全都堆在地下室的廉價品賣場。店員告訴他,由於韓國成衣品質不好,不是脫線掉扣,就是針線間隔不齊,只能當廉價品賣。讓朴泰俊聽了羞愧不已。 回國之後,他便去找外銷成衣廠的老闆,要求他讓女工時常洗澡,也要常換洗內衣,保持清潔的身體、舒暢的心情,做事才會謹慎細心,產品的品質才會完美無缺。 韓國由於冬天酷寒,能源又極為短缺,洗澡對韓國人是極為奢侈的享受,任何家庭要是生了個愛洗澡的小孩,一定會被認為是「敗家子」,韓國人因此提出「洗澡亡國論」來為不洗澡強辯。但是朴泰俊卻力排眾議,大力鼓吹他的洗澡品管論,要破除韓國人不洗澡的惡習。 朴泰俊巡視員工宿舍或造訪職員家庭,一定先察看浴室;他甚至不顧周圍人士的反對,動用當年達四億元台幣的經費在浦項鋼鐵廠興建符合國際水準的衛浴設備,讓一萬六千多名員工能在乾淨的環境中,發揮最高的工作效率。 朴泰俊認為,一個人身心端正,自然會將周遭整頓得整潔有序;若自身不潔,對環境的髒亂必然視若無睹。當這種心態與惰性定型以後,人便失去了規律,做事也會敷衍塞責。朴泰俊從日本農婦學到愛乾淨的洗澡論,成為這個大煉鋼廠的最基本經營理念,也是它成功的原動力。 看過韓國人受日本潔癖的影響而成功的故事,再來看看最近發生的馬偕醫師出遊日本引發爭議之後,在網路上流傳的一篇文章。其中這樣寫著: 「看看日本是怎麼做的:傳出馬偕醫生得SARS期間曾遊日本的新聞第二天,日本晚間NHK頭條新聞由政府發佈台灣醫師遊日路線圖,詳細公佈每天坐什麼交通工具,到過什麼地方旅遊參觀,每一餐在什麼飯店用餐,在什麼旅館住宿,並附帶說明此公佈已經所有店家同意,而所住過的每一家旅館的現狀,也都由店家自己簡短的附帶說明,總共住了四家旅館,其中三家已經自動歇業消毒中……(中略),所坐過的交通工具、所參觀過的地方,由政府全面清查消毒。」 日本政府與旅遊業者的如此作法,在中國人看來未免小題大作,而要譏笑日本人「神經兮兮」;但這就是日本人視為美德的「神經質」的具體表現。在日本人看來,這並不是神經過敏或矯枉過正的行為,而是鍥而不捨地為保障自己與群體的生命安全的基本道德,絕無任何一個日本人會認為這樣按圖索驥、追蹤感染源的舉措,是精神異常的人才會做的行為。 果然,日本並未傳出被SARS感染的病例。這樣的成就,難道華人世界也要怪日本人的神經質錯了嗎?日本人愛洗澡、有潔癖的習慣,甚至形成特殊的「泡湯文化」,而且已融入日常生活的一部份。只有讓潔癖與神經質成為每個人最基本的自我要求,不論求學與做事才會有「打破沙鍋問到底」的實事求是的精神。 經過這次SARS事件之後,台灣人最需要的就是潔癖與神經質的性格特質與生活習慣。希望有潔癖與神經質的台灣人,從今以後不必再畏畏縮縮,勇敢而大聲地站出來,告訴那些髒鬼或是中國人:「聽著,潔癖與神經質不是病態,那才是真正的美德!」台灣人不必自陷於中文的文字障而不知自拔,老舊與錯誤的觀念早就該變了。 後記: 完稿之後,再查一遍「漢英」、「日英」、「韓英」等辭典,想要確認「潔癖」這個詞在「漢字文化圈」的國家被如何譯成英文。 結果,在林語堂主編、1972年香港中文大學出版的「當代漢英詞典」找到的是「morbid preoccupation with cleanliness」(對潔淨的病態執著);梁實秋在台灣主編的「遠東漢英辭典」則是「neurotic aversion to dirt」(對骯髒的神經過敏地厭惡);「和英」與「韓英」辭典都是「fastidiousness」(相當於台語的「龜毛」)。 令我訝異的是,北京外國語學院英語系主編、商務印書館在1989年出版的「漢英詞典」居然沒有「潔癖」這個詞條,大概是中國人真的不知道「啥是潔癖」吧! 然後,還有一個有趣的發現是,到Google搜尋網站去查,「潔癖」一共有38,800條,其中竟有一半以上是日文的解析。 至此,我傾向於相信「潔癖」是源自日本的東西,可能是中文的「外來語」。就像「自由」、「民主」與「平等」都是日本人翻譯的漢字一樣,因為中國文化裡原本就沒有這些詞彙。 (本文稿費捐做SARS防疫基金,並歡迎轉載) |
恆愛台 於 2003/06/18 15:03 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
朱立熙先生寫得真棒!...............真感人∼∼∼ |
阿嬤 於 2003/06/18 15:07 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
唉呀,朱先生文章寫得這麼辛苦,竟是要捐稿費做功德啊!並且歡迎轉載呢。 啊問題是,怎麼可以把他羞辱成這樣呢? 計者敵啊,你欠朱先生一個道歉!要不然阿嬤不原諒你! |
恆愛台 於 2003/06/18 15:08 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
尤其這段話我最喜歡。。。。。未來新興台灣族裔必須擺脫支那文化的關鍵! ★經過這次SARS事件之後,台灣人最需要的就是潔癖與神經質的性格特質與生活習慣。希望有潔癖與神經質的台灣人,從今以後不必再畏畏縮縮,勇敢而大聲地站出來,告訴那些髒鬼或是中國人:「聽著,潔癖與神經質不是病態,那才是真正的美德!」台灣人不必自陷於中文的文字障而不知自拔,老舊與錯誤的觀念早就該變了。 |
阿嬤 於 2003/06/18 15:40 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
我建議回到開欄的主旨,結束一切口水,也請「計者敵」不要再節外生枝。 讓我們透過網友的傳播,一起來推動一個台灣人自發性的「全民清氣相運動」。 |
憨孫仔 於 2003/06/18 15:49 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
阿嬤: 我舉四肢贊成,因為這樣才能跟骯髒的支那人有所區隔! 大家一起推! |
ORCL 於 2003/06/18 16:35 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
要不要抵制參加旅遊CHINA的人。免得境外再輸入SARS。 |
Luke-Skywalker 於 2003/06/18 16:43 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
朱先生的文章我已轉貼至公視討論區了....... |
UMP-45 於 2003/06/18 22:27 | |
Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
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Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
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Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
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Re:學學日本人的「潔癖」與「神經質」——SARS應讓台灣人觀念變革 | |
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