MIG-21¬°¦ó¦b¥Hªü¾Ôª§©M¶V¾Ôªºªí²{¦³¦p¦¹¤jªº¤ÑÄ[¤§§O?

¦^À³¥»ÃD ¦Û¿ï©³¦â¡ô ªð ¦^


³¥ÆZ¤H ¡@©ó¡@2004/09/20 00:11
MIG-21¬°¦ó¦b¥Hªü¾Ôª§©M¶V¾Ôªºªí²{¦³¦p¦¹¤jªº¤ÑÄ[¤§§O?

¦b¶V¾Ô¤¤,¥_¶VªºMIG-21ÂÇ¥ÑCGI©M¦a§QÀu¶Õ
¥H­P©ó¥i¥H¥Î¶W­µ³t°fŧªº¤è¦¡°½Å§¬ü°ê®üªÅ­xªº¾Ô°«¾÷©M§ðÀ»¾÷©MÅF¬µ¾÷
³y¦¨¬ü­x¤£¤pªº¤ß²z¾_¾Ù(ÁöµM±o¤âªº¦¸¼Æ¤ñ¥¢¤âªº¦¸¼ÆÁÙ­n¤Ö«Ü¦h)
¦ý¦b¥Hªü¾Ôª§¤¤,¬°¦ó±Ô§Q¨È©M®J¤ÎªºªÅ­x¤£¯à±N¥_¶Vªº¼Ò¦¡µ¹¦pªkªw»s
¥H­P©óMIG-21¦b²Ä¤T¦¸©M²Ä¥|¦¸¥Hªü¾Ôª§¤¤ªºªí²{³£«Ü®t
©ú©ú¦b¶V«n¥i¥H¸òF-4ªº¥æ´«¤ñ©Ô¨ì±µªñ3:1ªºMIG-21
¦bÅ«¸o¤é¾Ôª§¤¤«o¸ò¥H¦â¦CªºF-4¥æ´«¤ñ»·¶W¹L10:1
¬°¦ó·|¦³¨º»ò¤jªº¤À³¥?

NO:330_1
¤j¦ó ¡@©ó¡@2004/09/20 00:50
Re:MIG-21¬°¦ó¦b¥Hªü¾Ôª§©M¶V¾Ôªºªí²{¦³¦p¦¹¤jªº¤ÑÄ[¤§§O?

³Ìªñ³o´X´Áªº¦yºÝ¬ì§Þ¤ë¥Z ­è¦n³£¦b¤¶²ÐF-4«ÕÆF¦¡¾Ô¾÷
¤Î¥H¦â¦C´X¦¸ªº¤¤ªF¾Ôª§ ¤º®e¬Û·íºëªö
±z¬Ý¤F¶Ü? ©ÎªÌ¬O¬Ý¹L¤F¤~¿³°_°Q½×ªº©ÀÀY?

NO:330_2
toga ¡@©ó¡@2004/09/20 09:52
Re:MIG-21¬°¦ó¦b¥Hªü¾Ôª§©M¶V¾Ôªºªí²{¦³¦p¦¹¤jªº¤ÑÄ[¤§§O?

¨ä¹ê¨ì¤F¶V¾Ô¥½´Á¡A¦Ñ¬üªÅ­x¾ú¸g¾T»P¦åªº±Ð°V¤§«á¡A³z¹L¾Ô³N»PªZ¾¹¸Ë³Æªº§ï¶i¡A¤w¸g¶}©l¦bªÅ¾Ô¤W§â¥æ´«¤ñ¼Æ©Ô¶}¡A¥u¬O¦]¬°¦b¤£¤[¤§«á¦Ñ¬ü«K¥þ­±°h¥X¶V¾ÔÄêÅu¡A¦]¦¹¨ä¦¨ªG¨Ã¥¼¤Ó¹LÅãµÛÄ£²´¡D

¦Ó1973¦~¤Q¤ë¶}¥´ªºÅ«¸o¤é¤§¾Ô¡A¥¿¦n¬O¦b¦Ñ¬ü¥¿¦¡°h¥X¶V¾Ô¨º¦~Á|¿ì¡A¥H¦â¦CªÅ­xÀ³¸Ó¦b®v©Ó¾Ç²ß¦Ñ¬ü³Ì·s¶V¾Ô¤ß±o¸gÅç¤W¨ü¯q¨}¦h¡D


NO:330_3
toga ¡@©ó¡@2004/09/20 09:52
Re:MIG-21¬°¦ó¦b¥Hªü¾Ôª§©M¶V¾Ôªºªí²{¦³¦p¦¹¤jªº¤ÑÄ[¤§§O?


¥t¥~¤@­Ó¥D­n­ì¦]¥i¯à¦b©ó¡G¥H¦â¦C°ê¨¾³¡¨S¦³¹³¦Ñ¬ü³Á¯Ç°¨©Ô¹Î¶¤¨º¼Ëªº¤Ñ¤~¯Z©³¡A¯à°÷¨î©w¥X·|Åý¾Ô¾÷­¸¦æ­û§Æ±æ¦Û¤v¾Ô¾÷«á®y§¤ªº¬O«ß®v¦Ó¤£¬OWSOªº¤Ñ§L¥æ¾Ô³W©w­­¨î¡D

NO:330_4
BM6 ¡@©ó¡@2004/09/20 14:00
Re:MIG-21¬°¦ó¦b¥Hªü¾Ôª§©M¶V¾Ôªºªí²{¦³¦p¦¹¤jªº¤ÑÄ[¤§§O?

¦L¶H¤¤ TOP GUN ¹q¼v¤¤,±Ð©x´¿´£¹L¶V¾Ô®ÉªÅ¾Ô¾ÔªG¤£°ªªº­ì¦]¬O:
ÅT§À³D­¸¼uªº¥X²{,¨Ï±o­¸¦æ°V½m ª¯«rª¯ ¤£³Q­«µø
¤j®a³£¥H¬°­¸¼u¸U¯àªº½t¬G.

NO:330_5
¥ì¶³ ¡@©ó¡@2004/09/20 15:17
Re:MIG-21¬°¦ó¦b¥Hªü¾Ôª§©M¶V¾Ôªºªí²{¦³¦p¦¹¤jªº¤ÑÄ[¤§§O?

¤@¨¥½ª¤§................

EC-121»PE-2


NO:330_6
DDG993 ¡@©ó¡@2004/09/20 15:49
Re:MIG-21¬°¦ó¦b¥Hªü¾Ôª§©M¶V¾Ôªºªí²{¦³¦p¦¹¤jªº¤ÑÄ[¤§§O?

>>³Ìªñ³o´X´Áªº¦yºÝ¬ì§Þ¤ë¥Z ­è¦n³£¦b¤¶²ÐF-4«ÕÆF¦¡¾Ô¾÷
¤Î¥H¦â¦C´X¦¸ªº¤¤ªF¾Ôª§ ¤º®e¬Û·íºëªö

®¦ ³o¤@´Áªº¬O¤¶²ÐF-4¦bÅ«¸o¤é¾Ôª§ªºªí²{ ¤º®e¬Û·íÂ×´I³á


NO:330_7
flak ¡@©ó¡@2004/09/20 16:00
Re:MIG-21¬°¦ó¦b¥Hªü¾Ôª§©M¶V¾Ôªºªí²{¦³¦p¦¹¤jªº¤ÑÄ[¤§§O?

¤@¨¥½ª¤§................
EC-121»PE-2

E-2¨ì²Ä¥|¦¸¤~¥X²{¡A¨º¦¸ªº¥D¨¤¤w¸g¬OF-15/16¤F
§Úı±o³Ì­«­nªº­ì¦]¬O¯èµ{¡A¬ü­xÅF¬µªº¶ZÂ÷¤ñ¸û»·¡A©Ò¥H­n¤¤°ª«×¤j½s¶¤ªøµ{­¸¦æ¡AMiG-21·íµM¥i¥H¶W­µ³t±D¥L¡C¦Ó¥Hªü³£¬OÃä¬É¾Ôª§¡A¥H¦â¦C¥i¥H¤p½s¶¤¤¤§CªÅ¬ðŧ¡AMiG-21¥u¦³³Q±Dªº¥÷¡C

°O±o¡u¥H¦â¦CªÅ­x¡v¤@®Ñ¤¤¦³´£¨ì¥H¦â¦C´¿¸g¥ÎF-4¶W­µ³t­¸¶V¤j°¨¤h­²§@¬°¥Ü«Â¡A¹L¤£¤F¦h¤[¡A±Ô§Q¨Èªº¦Ì®æ¾÷¡]21¡H23¡H¡^¤]¶W­µ³t¦^·q¤@¦¸¡A¥H¦â¦C¤]¬OºN³£¨SºNµÛ¡C§@ªÌ¤]¥u¬O»´´y²H¼g¡G¡u¥u­n¦³¤ß¡A¶W­µ³t±D¤HÁÙ¬O«ÜÃø¹w¨¾¡v´N±a¹L¤F¡C


NO:330_8
³·­· ¡@©ó¡@2004/09/20 18:37
Re:MIG-21¬°¦ó¦b¥Hªü¾Ôª§©M¶V¾Ôªºªí²{¦³¦p¦¹¤jªº¤ÑÄ[¤§§O?

¥_¶V¨Ï¥ÎMiG-21©M¨ä¦a­±³¡¶¤¾Ô³N¤@¼Ë --- ´åÀ»¾Ô
¹ï¬ü­x¾Ô¾÷¤U¬r¤âªº¥D­n¼Ò¦¡¬O¡AÂÇCGI¾É¤Þ¥H¶W­µ³töt¦Ü¬ü­xÅF¬µ½s¶¤¤»ÂIÄÁ¤U¤è¦º¨¤¡Aµo®g±¼¨âªTK-13­¸¼u«á°¨¤W±¼ÀY¦A¶W­µ³t°k¤§¤Ô¤Ô¡C©Î¬O±M¬D¸¨³æªº¥Ø¼Ð¡AEB-66C¡BRF-101C¡BRA-5C©M´¿¸g¤@¬[¸¨¶¤ªºF-102A¡B¶i¦æSARªºHH-53µ¥µ¥¤§Ãþ³£³QMiG-21À»¸¨¹L¡C¨ì¶V¾Ô¥½´ÁªºOperation Linebacker¡A¬ü­x°£¤F­¸¦æ­û¤w¸g¥[±j«rª¯°V½m¤]§ïÅܾԳN¡A¥H¤p½s¶¤«ÕÆF¾÷¦b¤¤§CªÅ¬y°Ê°µÂy±þ¶¤¡A¾ÔªG´N«Ü©úÅ㪺¤Wª@¡C

NO:330_9
³·­· ¡@©ó¡@2004/09/20 19:39
Re:MIG-21¬°¦ó¦b¥Hªü¾Ôª§©M¶V¾Ôªºªí²{¦³¦p¦¹¤jªº¤ÑÄ[¤§§O?

¹ï¤F¡A1965¦~¥ì©Ô§J¤@¦W­¸¦æ­û¸g¥H¦â¦CMossad±¡³ø¤H­ûµ¦°Ê¾rMiG-21«q°k¨ì¥H¦â¦C¡AÅý¥H¦â¦CÁA¸Ñ¨ì¤£¤ÖMiG-21©Ê¯à¤Î«X°ê°V½mªü©Ô§B­¸¦æ­ûªº¼Ò¦¡¡A¹ïIDF¦b«á¨Ó´X¦¸ªÅ¾Ô¥i»¡À°§U«D±`¤j¡C«á¨Ó¬ü°ê¦b¶V«n¾Ô³õ­±¹ïMiG-21®É´¿¸g±N¸Ó¾÷¯µ±K¹B¦Ü¤ºµØ¹F¦{¨Fºz¶i¦æ¤ÀªR¬ã¨s¡A¦³½ìªº¬O¡A·í®É¨ì¸Ó¦a¶i¦æ¯µ±K¯SºØ°V½mªº¡u©_Às­p¹º¡v°ê­x­¸¦æ²Õ­û³£Á٥ظ@¨ì¸ÓMiG-21¡C¡u©_Às­p¹º¡v¬O¦b1969¦~¨Ï¥ÎC-130E§ï¸ËªºªÅ¹B¾÷±q®õ°ê¥Xµo¡A¦¨¥\ªºªøµ{¶W§CªÅ­¸©èù¥¬ªy¤à¾À§ë¤U®ÖÃz°»´ú»ö¡AµM«á¦b¸Ñ©ñ­xªÅ¨¾¨t²Î²@µL¤ÏÀ³ªº±¡ªp¤U±q¤¤°ê¦è«n«áªù¦AºN¥X¡C

NO:330_10
³·­· ¡@©ó¡@2004/09/20 20:26
Re:MIG-21¬°¦ó¦b¥Hªü¾Ôª§©M¶V¾Ôªºªí²{¦³¦p¦¹¤jªº¤ÑÄ[¤§§O?

¥ì©Ô§JMiG-21«q°k¨Æ¥ó¬O¥H¦â¦CMossad±¡³ø§½¤Þ¥H¬°¶Æªº¦¨´N¤§¤@¡Aµ¦°Ê¯à°÷¦¨¥\³Ì¥D­n¬O¸Ó­¸¦æ­û«H©^°ò·þ±Ð¦b¥ì©Ô§J¦p¦¹¦^±Ð°ê®aùØ®æ®æ¤£¤J¡A¨Ï±oMossad¯à°÷§Q¥Î¥Ù¬Þ¨£Á_¬ï°w¡CN¦~«e¦bHBO¬Ý¹L¤@³¡§C¦¨¥»ªº¹q¼vÁ¿³o¥ó¨Æ±¡¡AÁöµM¨S¦³¥S§Ì§¨¤j·Aªº¼@±¡¡A¦ýÃø§K¦³ª÷¾v¬ü¤k©M¨k¤k±¡·R¡A³ÌÃø¥HÅý¤H§Ô¨üªº¬O¥D¨¤¤§¤@³º¬OMiG-17¡AµM«á¥H¦â¦CªÅ­x¬OT-33 >_<

NO:330_11
toga ¡@©ó¡@2004/09/21 18:41
Re:MIG-21¬°¦ó¦b¥Hªü¾Ôª§©M¶V¾Ôªºªí²{¦³¦p¦¹¤jªº¤ÑÄ[¤§§O?

http://www.google.com.tw/search?q=cache:neeXZ3-4ldkJ:www.danshistory.com/airwar.shtml+F-8+crusader,+Vietnam,+MIG-21&hl;=zh-TW

¸Ì­±¦³¨Ç»á¦³½ìªº¶V¾Ô°Ñ¦Ò¸ê®Æ¡G

ªÅ¾ÔKill / Loss Ratio:

From 1965 to March 31,1968
¬ü°ê®ü¯è¡G3.7 to 1
¬ü°êªÅ­x¡G3 to 1
¡]¦b³o¬q´Á¶¡¸Ì¡AF-8¤Q¦r­x¾Ô¾÷¬°®ü¯èªº³»¯Å¦Ì®æ±þ¤â¡A©ó1966~1968¨â¦~¶¡À»¸¨¤Q¤K¬[¦Ì®æ¡A¨ä¤¤¥|¬[¬°³½§É¾÷¡A¦Ó¥»¨­«h¶È·l¥¢¤T¬[¡F¦bÀ»¸¨ªº¤Q¤K¬[¾ÔªG¤¤¡A¥u¦³¨â¬[¨Ó¦Û¾÷¬¶¡A¨ä¥¦³£¬O¥ÎÅT§À³D¡D

From 1972~¾Ô²×
¬ü°ê®ü¯è¡G12.5 to 1
¬ü°êªÅ­x¡G4 to 1

¦Ñ¬ü¶V¾Ô¤ýµP¤­µ´¡G

Lt. Randy Cunningham¡A¬ü°ê®ü¯è¡A¥N¸¹¡¨¤½À¡A¦b³Q¤k¤Í¥Ï±¼¤§«á»â®©ÅfµM¾P»î¯à¶q¾÷°Ê³Z¤§µL¤W¶ø¸q¡A¦b¤@³õªÅ¾Ô¤¤³Ð¤UÀ»¸¨¥]¬A¯«¯µªº¥_¶VªÅ­x²Ä¤@±þ¤âTomb¦b¤ºªº¤T¬[¦Ì®æ¤§Åå¤H¾ÔªG¡A¾Ô²×²Ö¿n¾ÔªG¬°5¬[

Lt. Willie Driscoll¡A¬ü°ê®ü¯è¡A¾Ô²×²Ö¿n¾ÔªG¬°5¬[

Capt. Chuck E. DeBellevue ¡A¬ü°êªÅ­x¡A¾Ô²×²Ö¿n¾ÔªG¬°6¬[¡A¤­µ´¤§­º

Lt. Steve Ritchie¡A¬ü°êªÅ­x¡A¾Ô²×²Ö¿n¾ÔªG¬°5¬[

Lt. Jeff Feinstein¡A¬ü°êªÅ­x¡A¾Ô²×²Ö¿n¾ÔªG¬°5¬[


NO:330_12
toga ¡@©ó¡@2004/09/21 18:42
Re:MIG-21¬°¦ó¦b¥Hªü¾Ôª§©M¶V¾Ôªºªí²{¦³¦p¦¹¤jªº¤ÑÄ[¤§§O?

¬ü°êªÅ­x®ü¯è¦b¶V«nªÅ¾Ô¦¨ªG²Î­p¡G

Navy 57 ( 36 by Phantom pilots )

Air Force 137 ( 107 by Phantom pilots )

Total 194 ( 143 by Phantom pilots )


¦U¦¡«ÕÆF¾÷¦b¶V¾Ô®É´Á¤§¾Ô·l ( from June 6, 1965, to June 29, 1973 )¡G


F-4 C¡A¾Ô°«·l¥¢¡]ªÅ¾Ô/SAM/AAA¡^118¬[¡A¥¢¨Æ·N¥~33¬[¡A¦a­±¾Ô·l¡]¶V¦@©_ŧ¡^9¬[-->Á`­p·l¥¢160¬[¡D

RF-4 C¡A¾Ô°«·l¥¢¡]ªÅ¾Ô/SAM/AAA¡^72¬[¡A¥¢¨Æ·N¥~7¬[¡A¦a­±¾Ô·l¡]¶V¦@©_ŧ¡^4¬[-->Á`­p·l¥¢83¬[¡D

F-4 D¡A¾Ô°«·l¥¢¡]ªÅ¾Ô/SAM/AAA¡^169¬[¡A¥¢¨Æ·N¥~24¬[¡A¦a­±¾Ô·l¡]¶V¦@©_ŧ¡^1¬[-->Á`­p·l¥¢194¬[¡D

F-4 E ¡A¾Ô°«·l¥¢¡]ªÅ¾Ô/SAM/AAA¡^70¬[¡A¥¢¨Æ·N¥~3¬[¡A¦a­±¾Ô·l¡]¶V¦@©_ŧ¡^0¬[-->Á`­p·l¥¢73¬[¡D

¾÷«¬¤£¸Ô¡A¾Ô°«·l¥¢¡]ªÅ¾Ô/SAM/AAA¡^1¬[¡D


«ÕÆF¾÷©ó¶V¾Ô¤¤Á`¦@·l¥¢511¬[¡A¨ä¤¤430¬[·´©ó§@¾Ô¦æ°Ê¤¤¡A67¬[·´©ó·N¥~¥¢¨Æ¡A14¬[·´©ó¶V¦@¦a­±©_ŧ¡D


NO:330_13
flak ¡@©ó¡@2004/09/21 19:20
Re:MIG-21¬°¦ó¦b¥Hªü¾Ôª§©M¶V¾Ôªºªí²{¦³¦p¦¹¤jªº¤ÑÄ[¤§§O?

¬Q±ß½§¹IAPR¤¤ªºF-104¶V¾Ô¾Ô°O¡A¸Ì­±´£¨ì¥Ñ©ó¦Ì®æ¾÷ªº¥X²{¡A¬ü­x¬£»º¤FF-104¹L¥h±»Å@¡A¥D­n¦bÃä¹Ò¦a°Ï°õ¦æCAP»P«OÅ@EC-121¡C¦ý¥Ñ©ó±»Å@±o¤Ó¦³®ÄªG¡A©Ò¥H¥_¶V¦Ì®æ¾÷¾PÁn°Î¸ñ¡A¾É­PF-104¨S¦³±µ¾Ô°O¿ý¡A«K§ï§@¤Ñ®ð°»¹î»PCAS¥ô°È¡C

¦ý¥Ñ©óF-104³]­p¤£¾A¦XCAS¡A©Ò¥H¤S½Õ¦^¥»¤g¡C±Eª¾½Õ¦^¥h¤§«á¡A¦Ì®æ¾÷¤S¶}©l²s¼û¡A³sªF¨ÊÆWªºEB-66³£´~¤U¨Ó¡A«K¤S½Õ¬£F-104¦^¥h¡C°£¤F¶Ç²Îªº¹wĵ¾÷«OÃð¥ô°È¤§¥~¡A¥Ñ©ó°ª³tªº¯S©Ê¡AÁٯ౻Å@F-105¶i¦æ³¥Ã^§@¾Ô¡]¦ý¦¹Á|¾É­P¨ä³QSAM´~¤F´X¬[¤U¨Ó¡A¥H­P©ó«á¨Ó¥þ­±°tµo·í®Éºâ°ª¯Å°t³Æªº¹p¹Fĵ³ø¾¹¡^¡C¾¨ºÞ¤´µMºû«ùµL¤H´±¼Äªº«Â­·¡A¦ý¥Ñ©ó¥»¤g¶}©l¨O´«F-104¡A¤S¥[¤W±M¾ªÅÀu³æ¦ìªº®Ä¯q¤ñ§C¡A©Ò¥H´N¥ÎF-4§âF-104´«¤U¨Ó¤F¡C

¨S¦³±µ¾Ô°O¿ýªºF-104¤]¯à¼g¦¨«Â¾_¥_¶VªºªÅ¤¤¤§¤ý¡A¯u¤£ª¾¹D¥_¶V¨s³º¬O©È¤F¥LÁÙ¬OÃi±o²z¥L...


NO:330_14
SANJYSAN ¡@©ó¡@2004/09/21 19:53
Re:MIG-21¬°¦ó¦b¥Hªü¾Ôª§©M¶V¾Ôªºªí²{¦³¦p¦¹¤jªº¤ÑÄ[¤§§O?

¬JµMÅ@¯è¦³²£¥Í®ÄªG¡A¨º»ò¥_¶V¨ì©³¬O©È¤FÁÙ¬OÃiªº²z¡A¤]´N¤£­«­n¤F....

¸Ü»¡¦^¨Ó¡A¥_¶VÁ`¤£·|¦]¬°Ãiªº²zF-104¡A©ó¬O´N¸òµÛ©ñ¹L¥LÅ@¯èªºEC-121¤F§a....


NO:330_15
³·­· ¡@©ó¡@2004/09/21 23:23
Re:MIG-21¬°¦ó¦b¥Hªü¾Ôª§©M¶V¾Ôªºªí²{¦³¦p¦¹¤jªº¤ÑÄ[¤§§O?

>>Lt. Willie Driscoll¡A¬ü°ê®ü¯è¡A¾Ô²×²Ö¿n¾ÔªG¬°5¬[
>> Capt. Chuck E. DeBellevue ¡A¬ü°êªÅ­x¡A¾Ô²×²Ö¿n¾ÔªG¬°6¬[¡A¤­µ´¤§­º

³o¨â¦ì¦Ñ¥S³£¬OF-4«á®yWSO¡AChuck DeBellevue¦³°}¤l¬O©MSteve Ritchie¤@°_¥X¥ô°È¡AWillie Driscoll
«h¬O©MRandy Cunningham¤@²Õªº¡A©Ò¥H³o¸Ì¨â¤Hªº¾ÔªG¬O­«Å|ªº

>>¦b¤@³õªÅ¾Ô¤¤³Ð¤UÀ»¸¨¥]¬A¯«¯µªº¥_¶VªÅ­x²Ä¤@±þ¤âTomb¦b¤ºªº¤T¬[¦Ì®æ¤§Åå¤H¾ÔªG¡A

Tomb¤W®Õ¨´¤µ¤´¬O­ÓÁ¼¡A¬ü¶V«Ø¥æ«á³\¦h¦è¤è­x¥v®a«e©¹¶V«n¦¬¶°¶V¤èªº¸ê®Æ°µ¬ã¨s¡A³£§ä¤£¨ì©x¤è
¸ê®Æ¦³Ãö©ó¥ô¦óTomb¤W®Õªº°O¸ü¡A¦³¬Û·í¤jªº¥iºÃ©Ê¬O¡A¥L®Ú¥»¤£¬O¥_¶Vªº­¸¦æ­û¡C


NO:330_16
³·­· ¡@©ó¡@2004/09/21 23:38
Re:MIG-21¬°¦ó¦b¥Hªü¾Ôª§©M¶V¾Ôªºªí²{¦³¦p¦¹¤jªº¤ÑÄ[¤§§O?

¦b®Ñ©±Â½¾\³o´ÁIAPR¤]¥J²ÓŪ¤FF-104¶V¾Ô¾Ô°O¡A¤å³¹ùØ­±ÁÙ´£¨ìF-104¦bªF¨ÊÆW¤WCAP¾÷¶¤´¿¸g©M¤¤°ê
¸Ñ©ñ­xªºMiG-21©MMiG-19·N¥~±µÄ²¡A¦ý¤¤°ê­¸¦æ­û³£¬O±¼ÀY¤j¶}«á¿U¾¹°k¶}¡C

¥H«e¦b§OÄæ´£¹L¡A³Ìªì¦bªF¨ÊÆW§@·~ªºEC-121´N¬O¥H¥x«n¬°°ò¦a¡A¦Ó±»Å@ªºF-104«h¾n¦bCCK

~¤u§@¤¤¡A±ß¤WÄ~Äò


NO:330_17
³·­· ¡@©ó¡@2004/09/22 12:14
Re:MIG-21¬°¦ó¦b¥Hªü¾Ôª§©M¶V¾Ôªºªí²{¦³¦p¦¹¤jªº¤ÑÄ[¤§§O?

¨Ì¾Ú Vietnam Air Losses: USAF, Navy, and Marine Corps Fixed-Wing Aircraft Losses in SE Asia 1961-1973 (ISBN: 1857801156) ªº¸ê®Æ¡G

¬üªÅ­x«ÕÆF¾÷·l¥¢(¥]§t¾Þ§@·N¥~)
F-4C/D/E 445¬[ 321­û°}¤`¤Î¥¢ÂÜ 135­û³Q«R
RF-4C 83¬[ 65­û°}¤`¤Î¥¢ÂÜ 22­û³Q«R

¬ü®ü­x
F-4B/J 128¬[ 65­û°}¤`¤Î¥¢ÂÜ 42­û³Q«R

¬ü³°¾Ô¶¤
F-4B 98¬[ 55­û°}¤`¤Î¥¢ÂÜ 4­û³Q«R
RF-4B 4¬[ 3­û°}¤`¤Î¥¢ÂÜ

¹ê»ÚªÅ¾Ô·l¥¢(§t»P¤¤°ê¸Ñ©ñ­x¥æ¾Ô) 51¬[
F-4B (5) F-4C (7) F-4D (18) F-4E (18) F-4J (3)

¬Û¸û©óMiG¡A«ÕÆF¾÷¤£¦ý³y»ù©ù¶Q¦Ó¥B¤@¬[¤U¥h´N¬O¨â¦W­¸¦æ­û¡A¹ê¦bºG­«


NO:330_18
³¥ÆZ¤H ¡@©ó¡@2004/09/22 19:22
Re:MIG-21¬°¦ó¦b¥Hªü¾Ôª§©M¶V¾Ôªºªí²{¦³¦p¦¹¤jªº¤ÑÄ[¤§§O?

½Ð±ÐFLAK¦Ñ¤j
¦pªG¥_¶VªºMiG-21­¸¦æ­ûª¾¹D¨ä¹êF-104¹ê¤O¨S¦³·Q¹³¤¤¨º»ò±j
(¬ÝF-104¦b¦Lªü¾Ôª§©MMIg-21ªº¥æ´«¤ñ´Nª¾¹D¤F)
¨ºF-104¸òMIG-21±µ¾Ô¤£¬O¨S¦³¦h¤j³Óºâ¶Ü?

NO:330_19
flak ¡@©ó¡@2004/09/22 20:02
Re:MIG-21¬°¦ó¦b¥Hªü¾Ôª§©M¶V¾Ôªºªí²{¦³¦p¦¹¤jªº¤ÑÄ[¤§§O?

¦pªG¥_¶VªºMiG-21­¸¦æ­ûª¾¹D¨ä¹êF-104¹ê¤O¨S¦³·Q¹³¤¤¨º»ò±j
(¬ÝF-104¦b¦Lªü¾Ôª§©MMIg-21ªº¥æ´«¤ñ´Nª¾¹D¤F)
¨ºF-104¸òMIG-21±µ¾Ô¤£¬O¨S¦³¦h¤j³Óºâ¶Ü?

³o¨Ç¤w¦¨©¹¨Æ¡A¤Ñ¾å±o©O¡H
¤£¹L¾ÚIAPRªº¤å³¹¡A·í®ÉªºªÅ­xF-104³æ¦ì©M®ü­xªºF-8³æ¦ì¤@¼Ë¡A¬O¤Ö¼Æ¨S¦³§â°ò¥»ªÅ¾Ô¥\¤ÒÀÁ¤Uªº³æ¦ì¡C¦A¥[¤WF-104ªº³t«×§Ö¡AÅé¿n¤p¡A¤õ¤O±j¤j¡]¦P®É¾Ö¦³ÅT§À³D­¸¼u»PM61¾÷¯¥¡^¡A¥L­Ì»{¬°MiG-21´Nºâ¨Ó¤]¦³³Q®_ªº¥÷¡C

NO:330_20
³·­· ¡@©ó¡@2004/09/23 02:58
Re:MIG-21¬°¦ó¦b¥Hªü¾Ôª§©M¶V¾Ôªºªí²{¦³¦p¦¹¤jªº¤ÑÄ[¤§§O?

>> (¬ÝF-104¦b¦Lªü¾Ôª§©MMIg-21ªº¥æ´«¤ñ´Nª¾¹D¤F)
>> ¨ºF-104¸òMIG-21±µ¾Ô¤£¬O¨S¦³¦h¤j³Óºâ¶Ü?

¬O¦L¤Ú¾Ôª§§a¡H
ºî¦XÆF¬¡¾÷°Ê©Ê¡AMiG-21¬OÀu©óF-104¡A¦ýF-104¥ç¦³¨ä¥[³t©M°ªªÅ©Ê¯àÀu¶Õ¡C¬ü°ê1961¦~¥æ¤©¤Ú°ò´µ©Z¤@¤¤¶¤12¬[F-104A©M2¬[F-104B¡A1965¦~²Ä¤@¦¸¦L¤Ú¾Ôª§ùتí²{ÁÙ¤£«U¡A¦ý1971¦~²Ä¤G¦¸¦L¤Ú¾Ôª§®É«o¦h¥Î©ó§CªÅ°ª³t¬ï³z¹ï¹p¹F¾÷³õ¤§Ãþ¦a­±¥Ø¼Ð¥´À»¡A©MMiG-21¥æ¾Ô¶È¦³¤@¦¸´N¬O¦b§CªÅ±¡ªp¤U³QÄdºI¡A2¬[¾DÀ»¸¨¡A³o§¹¥þ¬O¿ù¥ÎF-104Àu¶Õªºµ²§½¡C¦L«×«ÅºÙ¸Ó³õ¾Ôª§¤¤À»¸¨5¬[F-104¡A¦ý«Ü©úÅ㦳¼ê­·¤§¶û¡A¦]¬°²Ä¤@¦¸¾Ôª§«á¬ü°ê´N¹ï¤Ú°êªZ¾¹¸T¹B¡A¨äF-104­n¦³¨¬°÷®Æ¥ó°µ°ª¥X¶Ô²v¤~¯à³y¦¨¦p¦¹°ª¤ñ¨Ò¾Ô·l¤~¬O¡C°ò¥»¤W¡A¦L¤Ú¶¡ªº¾Ôª§¬O³õÃú·Ù·Ù²V¾Ô¡A«ÜÃø±q¤¤¤ÀªR¬Ý¨ì¤°»òµ²ªG¡A³o¤£¥ú¬O¦b¤Ú°êªºF-104¤W¡A¦L«×ªºMiG-21ÁÙµo¥Í³Q¤Ú°êªºÄ褻(MiG-19)¬Æ¦ÜF-86À»¸¨(¦L«×¤è­±¸ê®Æ¤j¦h¨S©Ó»{¦¹F-86¾ÔªG)¡A©Ò¥H±q¦L¤Ú¾Ôª§·í¤¤¬O«ÜÃøÂ_¨¥¥XF-104©ÎMiG-21ªºÀu¦H¡A¦Ó¬O¦Ñ¸Ü¤@¥y¡A­¸¦æ­ûªº°V½m¸gÅç¡A¥æ¾ÔªÅ°ì¦aÂI¡A¾ÔºÞªº°t¦Xµ¥¡A¤]¬O¼vÅT³Ó±ÑªºÃöÁä¡C


NO:330_21
fer-de-lance ¡@©ó¡@2004/09/23 07:22
Re:MIG-21¬°¦ó¦b¥Hªü¾Ôª§©M¶V¾Ôªºªí²{¦³¦p¦¹¤jªº¤ÑÄ[¤§§O?

>¦L«×¤è­±¸ê®Æ¤j¦h¨S©Ó»{¦¹F-86¾ÔªG

The Indian pilot, Flt. Lt. Tejwant Singh of No.29 Sq, was captured - cannot get better confirmation than that. It was a 50-cal gun kill by the Pakistani pilot Flt. Lt. Masoud Amir - he was too close to use his Sidewinders after forcing the MiG-21FL to overshoot in a scissors maneuvre.

Common theme between the Israelis and the US Navy over Vietnam in 1972-73 - air combat maneuver training and Navy model Sidewinders.

Everybody started out using AIM-9B with the uncooled seeker. Then, the Navy went to cooling their seeker with nitrogen in the AIM-9D (LAU-7 launcher with the nitrogen bottle). The USAF went with the AIM-9E with a Peltier cooling system which performed nowhere as well as the -9D. When the Israeli Defence Forces bought F-4E Phantoms from the US, they specified the LAU-7 launchers and the superior Navy model Sidewinders.

In 1972, the USAF preferred using AIM-7 Sparrows - partly because of the poor range performance of their AIM-9E. However, the vacuum tube electronics of the Sparrow of that period meant poor reliability. Further more, the Sparrow simply was not agile enough to intercept MiGs pulling tight maneuvres.

The US Navy, however, persisted with their Sidewinders and trained hard to use them. One dramatic improvement was the SEAM system where the AIM-9G and later -9H Sidewinders had their seekers slaved to the radar boresight. This allowed quicker target acquisition and missile lock-on - which was a great advantage in a close dogfight. The Israelis were particularly impressed with this and built the capability into the IR-homing missiles they produced.

The USAF finally caught on in the mid-70s and bought a Sidewinder based on the Navy pattern, the all-aspect AIM-9L (which had its own coolant bottle to suit Air Force launchers with gas bottles). Nevertheless, the USAF was still very Sparrow focussed - making a lot of effort to make the AIM-7F into a much more capable missile than its predecessors.

The AIM-9P series USAF pattern Sidewinders are also much improved over its predecessors. The AIM-9P4 can also have its seeker slaved to the radar boresight (and also have some all-aspect intercept capabilities).


NO:330_22
³·­· ¡@©ó¡@2004/09/24 07:05
Re:MIG-21¬°¦ó¦b¥Hªü¾Ôª§©M¶V¾Ôªºªí²{¦³¦p¦¹¤jªº¤ÑÄ[¤§§O?

¬Q±ß¬Ý¤F¤@¨Ç®Ñ©Mºô¸ô¤Wªº¸ê®Æ«áµo²{¦Û¤v¥²¶·­n¸É¥RNO:330_20ªº¤º®e¡C

1965¦~²Ä¤@¦¸¦L¤Ú¾Ôª§¤¤¤Ú°êªºF-104¾Ô·l¬O1¬[¡A¾ÔªG¬OÀ»¸¨ªk»s¤Û¯µ¦¡(Mystere)2¬[¡B­^»s§¢°ö©ÔÅF¬µ¾÷1¬[¡B¥H¤Î¡u«R¸¸¡v­^»sÓ¦¡(Gnat)1¬[¡C¸ÓÓ¦¡ªº¦L«×­¸¦æ­û¦bªÅ¤¤¾D¹JF-104®É¥i¯àÄà©ó¨ä«Â¦W³ºµM©ñ¤U°_¸¨¬[·nÂ\§ÀÁl§ë­°¡AµM«á³Q©ãµÛ­¸©¹¤Ú°ò´µ©Z¹Ò¤º­°¸¨¡C­Y»¡¦L«×ªü¤T­¸¦æ­û³£Äê¨ì²@µL¾Ô°«·N§Ó¤]¤£¬O¡A³QÀ»¸¨ªº¨ä¤¤1¬[¤Û¯µ¦¡´N¬O³Ð¤UÀ»¸¨F-104¬ö¿ý¡A¨ä¬O¦b°{±¼°ª³tªºF-104µo®gÅT§À³DŧÀ»«á¡AF-104±¼ÀY´î³t¥HM61¶i¦æªñ¨­Äñ°«®É¡A©ó¨­¤¤¼Æ¼u­«¶Ë¤§»Ú¤Ï«r¡A§â¤@±Æ¾÷¬¶¥´¤JF-104«á¼Y·´¡A¤Ú°ê­¸¦æ­û¤£±o¤£±ó¾÷¼u®g¡C¦L«×¤è­±¬O¤G¤Q´X¦~«á±q¤Ú°ê¤è­±¤~±oª¾¸Ó­¸¦æ­ûA.B. Devayyaªº­^«i¦æ¬°¦Ó°lÃØ¾±³¹¡C

¦bNO:330_20 ´£¨ì1965¦~«á¬ü°ê´N¹ï¤Ú°êªZ¾¹¸T¹B¡A·Ó¹D²z1971¦~²Ä¤G¦¸¾Ôª§®É¤Ú°êF-104À³¸Ó·|¯Ê¥F®Æ¥ó¦ÓµLªk¦³¦h¤Ö¥ô°È¥X¶Ô¡A¦ý¦L«×¤è¦¡ªº¸ê®Æ°µ¤F¥i¯à©Êªº¸ÑÄÀ¡G¨º¨ÇF-104¬O¬ù¥¹¹B°e¹L¥h¤ä´©ªº¡C1967¦~¤¤ªF¤»¤é¾Ôª§®É¡A¤Ú°ò´µ©ZªÅ­x´¿¸g¥h¨ó§U¤w¸g³Q¥H¦â¦C¤j³¡Äè·À¦a­±ªºªü©Ô§B¥S§ÌªÅ­x¡A©Ò¥H¬ù¥¹§ë®ç³ø§õ¬O·¥¬°¦X²zªº±À½×¡C¨Ì¦L«×ªº»¡ªk¬O²Ä¤G¦¸¾Ôª§¤¤À»¸¨5¬[F-104¡A¤Ú°ê¬O©Ó»{2¬[ªÅ¾Ô¤¤¾DÀ»¸¨1¬[·´©ó¨¾ªÅ¬¶¤õ¡A§e²{¦U»¡¦U¸ÜµLªk§P©w½Ö¯u½Ö°°ªº±¡§Î¡C¤£¹L¥i¥H½T©wªº¬O¡AF-104³Q¤Ú°ê®³¨Ó°µ°ª³t¹ï¦a¥´À»³Q¤]¦³°ª³t©Ê¯àªºMiG-21¯à°÷ÄdºI°lÀ»¡A¦b§CªÅµo¥ÍªÅ¾Ô¥u¦³³Q®Á¥´ªº¥÷¡C¤£ºÞ¬OF-104©ÎMiG-21³£¦³µo¥Í³Q¬Û®t¤@¥Nªº¦Ñ¾Ô¾÷µh«óªº©Ç¨Æ¡A«Ü©úÅ㪺¨â­¿­µ³t¾Ô¾÷´î³tª±ªñ¨­Äñ°«·|¤£¨ã¦³¥ô¦óÀu¶Õ¡A³o´N²o¯A¨ì¦æ­ûªº°V½m»P¸gÅç¤F¡C

¦³½ìªº¬O¤£ºÞ¤Ú°ò´µ©Z©Î¬ù¥¹¨Ï¥ÎªºF-104AùØÀY¡A¨ä¤¤´X¬[­ì¥»¬O¡uªü¨½¤s¤@¸¹¡v¨º§å¾Ô¾÷¡A´¿¸g¦b°ê­xªÅ­xùتA§Ð¹L¡C


NO:330_23
¤j¦ó ¡@©ó¡@2004/09/24 09:48
Re:MIG-21¬°¦ó¦b¥Hªü¾Ôª§©M¶V¾Ôªºªí²{¦³¦p¦¹¤jªº¤ÑÄ[¤§§O?

F104ªºÁl­t²ü ¥i¯à¬O­Ë¼Æ²Ä¤@¦W
¥¦À³¸Ó¥u¾A¦XÄdºI ©Î¤¤°ªªÅ°ª³t¤@À»²æÂ÷¾Ô³N
ºC¤U¨Ó©Î¸¨¨ì§CªÅª±ª¯°« ¬O¤@ºØ«Ü¤£´¼ªº¦æ¬°

§Ú´¿¸g¸òF104¦³¹L¹p¹F±µÄ²
¦b¨º­Ó®É­Ô »¡¥xÆW¾Ô¾÷¤£·|¶V¹L®ü®l¤¤½u ¥´¦º§Ú¤]¤£«H


NO:330_24
No.1 M. E. ¡@©ó¡@2004/09/24 09:55
Re:MIG-21¬°¦ó¦b¥Hªü¾Ôª§©M¶V¾Ôªºªí²{¦³¦p¦¹¤jªº¤ÑÄ[¤§§O?

>¨ä¤¤´X¬[­ì¥»¬O¡uªü¨½¤s¤@¸¹¡v¨º§å¾Ô¾÷¡A´¿¸g¦b°ê­xªÅ­xùتA§Ð¹L¡C

¡@¡@°O±o¥Ø«e¦b®ç¶é¾÷³õ¯èªÅÀ]¦a­±®i¥Üªº¨º¤@¬[¢Ô¡Ð¢°¢¯¢³¤]¬O¡uªü¨½¤s¤@¸¹¡v¡H


NO:330_25
³·­· ¡@©ó¡@2004/09/24 10:36
Re:MIG-21¬°¦ó¦b¥Hªü¾Ôª§©M¶V¾Ôªºªí²{¦³¦p¦¹¤jªº¤ÑÄ[¤§§O?

>>°O±o¥Ø«e¦b®ç¶é¾÷³õ¯èªÅÀ]¦a­±®i¥Üªº¨º¤@¬[¢Ô¡Ð¢°¢¯¢³¤]¬O¡uªü¨½¤s¤@¸¹¡v¡H

ªü¨½¤s¤@¸¹¬O1960¦~²Ä¤TÁp¶¤8¤¤¶¤¦bCCK­º¥ý±µ¦¬22¬[F-104A©M4¬[F-104B¡Aªü¨½¤s¤G¸¹©M¥|¸¹¬O¤TÁp¶¤¨ä¥L¤¤¶¤±µ¦¬F-104G/D¡BTF-104G¡Aªü¨½¤s¤T¸¹¬O¤­Áp¶¤12¤¤¶¤±µ¦¬RF-104G¡Aªü¨½¤s¤­¸¹«h¬O8¤¤¶¤¤]Âà´«¦ÜF-104G¨t¦C¡A­ì¨ÓªºF-104A/BÂkÁÙ¬ü°ê¡A¼Æ¦~¤§«á³o§åF-104A¦³2¬[¬ü°ê²¾¥æµ¹¤Ú°ò´µ©Z¡A¨ä¾lªº«h¨ì¬ù¥¹¡A²@µLºÃ°Ýªº¡A¨ä¤¤¦³¼Æ¬[°Ñ»P¤F¦L¤Ú¾Ôª§¡C®ç¶é¾÷³õ¯èªÅÀ]®i¥Üªº¨º¤@¬[F-104A¬OÄÝ©óªü¨½¤s¤»¸¹¡A1970¦~·s¦Ë¤GÁp¶¤±µ¦¬¬üªÅ­x°h§ÐªºF-104A/B¥H²^¨OF-86F¡A¦ý³o§åF-104A/B©M10¦~«e¨º§å¤£¦P¡A¬O¨Ï¥Î§ó¤j±À¤OªºJ79-GE-19¤ÞÀº¡C


NO:330_26
³·­· ¡@©ó¡@2004/09/24 10:55
Re:MIG-21¬°¦ó¦b¥Hªü¾Ôª§©M¶V¾Ôªºªí²{¦³¦p¦¹¤jªº¤ÑÄ[¤§§O?

>>¤j³¡Äè·À¦a­±ªºªü©Ô§B¥S§ÌªÅ­x

§ó¥¿¡G
¤j³¡Äè·À¦a­±ªº¦^±Ð¥S§ÌªÅ­x

¥H¦â¦CªÅ­x¾÷¶¤¦b1981¦~©_ŧ¥ì©Ô§J¤Ú®æ¹Fªº®Ö¤l¤ÏÀ³Äl«á¡A¤]´¿¸g¦³¹ï¤Ú°ò´µ©Z®ÖªZ³]¬I¶i¦æ§ðÀ»
ªº­p¹º¡A¦ý²Ó¸`¥~¬É¤´¤£¬O«Ü²M·¡¡A¥i¯à¬O¶W¥XF-15¡BF-16¯èµ{¤]¸ó¶V¤Ó¦h°ê®a¡AÃø«×¤Ó°ª¦Ó§@½}¡C


¦^½×¾Â

Åwªï«e©¹¯ùÄÒ2005¦~·s½×¾ÂTaiwanBBS.ORG°Ñ»P°Q½×¡C

¥H¤Uªí®æ¶È¨ÑºÞ²z¤H­û¾ã²z¸ê®Æ¿é¤J¤§¥Î

¸ê®Æ¿é¤JID
¸ê®Æ¿é¤J±K½X
½Ð¨Ì¤å³¹¤º®eÄæ¼e«×Â_¦æ(«öEnterÁä)¥H§K¯}¦æ.THANKS~~
¸p¦W¡G [¡ñ¡ð]¡G¨k¤k HTML»yªk¥u´£¨Ñ¦rÅéÅܤƻPURL³sµ²
¦^À³¥D¦®¡G
¦^À³¤º®e¡G
¡y ¡z ¡i ¡j ¡m ¡n ¡u ¡v ¡A ¡C ¡] ¡^ ¡¸ ¡¹ ¡³ ¡´ ¡º ¡» ¡¼ ¡½ ¡· ¡ó ¡ù ¡ú ¡ø ¡û ¡÷ ¡ö ¡ô ¡õ ¡Ú ¡Û ¡Ñ ¡Ò ¡Õ ¡Ö ¡î ¡ï ¡À ¢J ¢K ¢C ¢D ¢G ¡° ¡ò
¤Þ­zÁ|¨Ò:±ý³sµ²¥»ª©²Ä123ÃD½s¸¹123_5ªºµo¨¥
<a; href=http://taiwantp.net/cgi/TWforum.pl?board_id=6&type;=show_post&post;=123_5>123;_5</a>

»yªk«ö¶s¨Ï¥Î«á½Ð¦¬§À¡÷¡÷¡÷
¨Ï¥ÎIE¡A¤å³¹¤£·V®ø¥¢®É¡A½Ð¥ß§Y¦b¥´¦r°Ï¤º«ö·Æ¹«¥kÁä¿ï[´_­ì]¡C