美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份
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Pinus 於 2004/06/05 14:19 | |
美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
中國正在購買四艘俄羅斯基洛級攻擊核潛來擴張並升級它的潛艦艦隊。對中國海軍而 言﹐基洛級比起吵得要命的羅密歐級是一大改善。而且基洛級可能會配有尾流追蹤 魚雷﹐這種魚雷不易偵測。中國目前自產兩種柴電潛艦--明級和宋級。明級是仿造 羅密歐級﹐而新造的艦隻據聞有較先進的聲納和導航設備。宋級是一種中國自身和 西方技術的混合體﹐其中有些特徵指出對柴電潛艦設計思路的重大變革。中國已經 開造了它第一艘下一代的核潛船殼﹐估計2005年可以服役﹐往後還會建造幾艘。新 世代的核動力彈道飛彈潛艦﹐類似核潛的設計﹐將會有一個攜帶海基彈道飛彈的飛 彈艙。 |
Pinus 於 2004/06/07 02:56 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
關於尾流追蹤魚雷 一般普通魚雷依靠主動或被動聲納來尋標﹐而尾流追蹤魚雷則依靠測定船隻行動時 然而一艘靜音及匿蹤都良好的船艦在行駛還是會產生尾流﹐因此有可能根據尾流的 但是實際運用可能並不簡單。從衛星圖中﹐我們知道一艘大船的尾流可以綿延數百 據美國國防部的說法﹐配備在基洛級的俄製尾流追蹤魚雷有頗精巧的設計﹐可以排 |
Pinus 於 2004/06/11 07:23 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
尾流追蹤魚雷至少有兩型﹕ 一種是尾流歸向(wake-homing), 一種是尾流點測(wake-nibbling) 。前者是在測到並穿過尾流時﹐把方向舵以一定角度迴轉﹐以便朝向船艦。這種尋 標方式使得魚雷會如蛇行一般﹐ 左右穿梭來追上水面艦。尾流點測則是以測試並遵 循尾流邊界來追上艦隻。有人認為後者更厲害﹐因為無須在尾流區穿來穿去﹐浪費時 間及燃料﹐說不定也容易被發現。 尾流追蹤魚雷尋標器當然往上看﹐進入尾流時須以銳角切入。由於一艘大船的尾流 但是艦隻在轉彎抹角時﹐它產生的尾流形式與直行時大不相同﹐尾流追蹤魚雷應當 中國買的基洛級潛艦會是那一種尾流追蹤魚雷呢﹖ |
Pinus 於 2004/06/21 14:50 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
中國海軍潛艦部隊的一些近況 最近美國的萊爾-古德斯坦(Lyle Goldstein) 以及威廉-莫雷(Willam Murray)[兩人 文章發表日期是 2004年5月31日﹐ 算是滿新的。美國專家們評述中國戰力似乎分成
首先是眾所週知的向俄國購買八艘基洛級潛艦的事實。目前中國海軍(PLAN)有四艘 作者也提到﹐去年(2003)五月中國361號潛艇事件發生後﹐原海軍司令石雲生及政委 他們也提到﹐其實中國海軍在創軍之初(蕭勁光為第一任海軍司令員)就極端重視潛 (待續) |
李淳風桑 於 2004/06/21 16:42 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
當壁虎中 不過這麼好的深入剖析文章實在非常精彩 忍不住要拍手叫好 於是壁虎就掉下來了... 熱烈期待續集中... 看過報導 基洛級的靜音好像比洛杉磯好點 美軍也不敢小瞿 只是中國保養... |
line 於 2004/06/21 18:17 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
KILO的靜因能力啊.....應該要看是何時建造的吧?最新的編號忘了是什麼,不過真的很安靜。 不過老美的靜音絕活應該是海狼跟維吉尼亞吧,要比也要這樣比才比較公平。 |
Luke-Skywalker 於 2004/06/21 20:27 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
↑877KEM型嗎?還是636M型? |
toga 於 2004/06/21 22:50 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
↑老共這次向俄羅斯新購的SSK據信是Kilo 636型,現有的服役艦種則是Kilo 877型;根據中國的船艦雜誌記載,現有的Kilo 877型的噪音級數約為117分貝級上下. |
Pinus 於 2004/06/22 01:42 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
感謝各位加入討論﹐要不然本欄只像是壁虎展覽館(﹕P) 李淳風桑﹕多謝鼓勵。您的老搭檔一行法師有沒有同行﹖(開個小玩笑)。 中國潛艦對台灣國防的威脅可能大過陸基飛彈﹐是故有必要加以注意。 上面提到的被革職的石雲生原是航空員﹐所以這兩位作者認為潛艦出身的張定發可 上面提過的尾流歸向魚雷是屬於射後不理的型式﹐其母潛更有可能事先逃逸。 絕氣推進系統是另一樣值得注意的發展。中國買的基洛會不會有這玩意﹖目前的猜 巴基斯坦近來進口了配有法國AIP系統的潛艦﹐以中國和巴基斯坦的關係﹐中國極有 中國自己也在研究AIP﹐主力在大連化學物理研究所﹐老江在1999年還去那裡視察﹐ 中國也在改進宋級潛艦。2002年美國國防部報告就已提到宋級可能會加配先進AIP系 哇勒﹗@#$﹐人家在全速前進﹐咱們那些大立委還在努力扯後腿﹗﹗ |
Pinus 於 2004/06/22 10:46 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
有關宋級的艦帆 前一陣子﹐很多人在猜測宋級潛艦的艦帆改低﹐類似法國的Agosta 90B, 以便使得 核子潛艦 中國的夏級SSBN和漢級SSN都很吵﹐而且據云對船員的嚴重危害也不少。現在夏級正 至於夏級的代替品﹐094﹐也已開始動工﹐其靜音程度可能和颱風級差不多。據說﹐ 動作這麼明顯﹐美國人都是瞎子嗎﹖ 自從老鄧掌權後﹐PLAN走的是高科技的路子﹐不過近來看到美國在90年代的幾次戰 |
旁觀者2 於 2004/06/22 12:59 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
>>現在發現並不是這麼回事﹐而是把艦帆前端伸長﹐所以“看起來”似乎減低而已 我對過圖 的確有減低一些 但可能因為不使艦帆原始結構 相關器材改變太大 所以降低的不多 |
Pikachuu 於 2004/06/22 14:25 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
>>1996年﹐一堆中國網民在網上吹噓的“嚇跑美國空母”﹐所根據的只是那時有漢級在活動而已。 是老美航艦戰鬥群把中共嚇跑吧?漢級這種廣州出港在西貢就被美軍聽到、渤海出港就被日軍在九州聽到的垃圾老美是不可能放在眼裡的,記得好像有一次還有一艘漢級被美國艦隊包圍,中共艦隊差點要傾巢而出來救人。 為什麼一堆消息都聲稱093/094擁有什麼了不得的「氣冷反應爐」,速度飆到40節?中共目前連一個安靜可靠的大功率壓水反應爐可能都有問題了,何況能飆上40節以上的潛艦就只有兩種──阿爾發與海狼,中共又想如大躍進般一步登天超英趕美嗎?總覺得什麼「氣冷反應爐」只是在吹牛。 宋級目前艦體還有一堆大大小小的水櫃開口,航行時肯定弄出不少噪音,如果老共要繼續建造的話這點必須改進。 |
李淳風桑 於 2004/06/22 15:22 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
還有 上次在釣魚台還是琉球附近被日本逼出海面的中國潛艇 好像是宋級吧? 中國自己誇嚇到日本? |
Luke-Skywalker 於 2004/06/22 16:59 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
↑不是,是大搖大擺說我來了的明級(035型),詳 http://tw.letter.yahoo.com/one/latest.php?letter_id=3572&d;=2004-06-11&old;=126 |
kkk 於 2004/06/22 19:34 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
不是被逼出來的,是故意浮航給日本看的 |
Pinus 於 2004/06/22 22:54 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
旁觀者2兄﹐ 這兩位作者也說他們是對過照片之後的結論﹐而且他們說的照片中還有人員之身高 >為什麼一堆消息都聲稱093/094擁有什麼了不得的「氣冷反應爐」,速度飆到 兩個可能﹕一個是純吹噓﹐另一個就是直接跟俄國買推進器。
PLAN近來了解到“錢”的吸引力﹐因此也把潛艦軍員的“工資”調高﹐有的階層調
課程內容重視戰史研究﹐尤其像二戰納粹之潛艇戰﹐德國海軍發展史(大概認為德國 訓練之演進 逐漸注重聯合演習﹐並進行角色互換之訓練﹐如由水面艦艇之指揮官來指揮潛艦﹐ |
John 於 2004/06/22 23:11 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
>>為什麼一堆消息都聲稱093/094擁有什麼了不得的「氣冷反應爐」,速度飆到40節? 看到一篇文章,節錄了可以很好回答問題: 1高溫氣冷攻關組在清華核研院,增殖堆攻關組在中國原子能科學研究院。這兩種堆型,在國外,已經工程化好些時間了,但是未有成功的商業運行。高溫堆是聯邦德國的提出並發展的技術,快堆倒是世界許多國家都在覬覦著,搞得比較成熟的是法國和日本。所以說,這兩個863能源計劃項目,在西方早已經不是什麼新鮮技術了。中國為什麼還在搞呢?這個跟中國的科研風氣有關。中國的科研,首先要看國外是否有了,有了跟蹤第一,趕超第二,畢竟跟蹤起來容易,趕超起來要費力。這個跟中國的科研能力,基礎工業能力有關,是沒辦法的事情。那小而言之,這兩個能源項目,訂立的時候,其實已經是跟蹤為主了. 2.軍用堆,在中國,主要是艇用軍用堆。091 092的堆型,全部是壓水堆,且是跟蹤和消化國外的相關技術發展起來。完成單位為位于四川的中國核動力研究院.高溫氣冷攻關組在清華核研院,可以看出,高溫氣冷堆和中國軍用壓水堆是兩部分幾乎沒有相關的人在不同的地方,按照不同的技術路線在走。彼此的交集到底有多大? 3.以訛傳訛:不管高溫氣冷堆如何發展,如何小,如何的牛,他上艇的可能都非常的小。這個跟他的特殊工質有關︰氦氣。氦氣的出入口溫度的確高,但是氣體的密度能跟水、液態金屬比較嗎?氣體的焓能有多大?經過反應堆的加熱,氣體的焓升能有多大?這個跟水跟液態金屬是沒有辦法比較的。因此,軍用堆的爭論,只能發生在水堆和液態金屬堆(此種劃分非專業性劃分,僅僅以工質做初略劃分);氣體堆,不好意思,老老實實搞民用發電吧。 |
SANJYSAN 於 2004/06/23 00:54 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
↑ 使用氣冷堆的話,水下載具首先就碰到氣源問題。這些氣體全都得內儲(和液態金屬堆一樣),來源首先就是個大問題。 氣冷堆最好的用途不是水下,甚至也不是商用反應爐(因可以拉水管就沒必要用氣),而是飛行系統這類難以大量取水的環境。簡單來說,對於核動力飛機比較適合。 不過我想這會不會是筆誤?雖然我不認為093會使用傳統構型以外的核反應爐,然而在核反應爐種類裡面,有一種尚屬於理論研究的系統,即氣態核心反應爐,有別於傳統使用燃料棒的固態核心反應爐.... |
Supp 於 2004/06/23 01:22 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
氣冷應該是指核反應爐的冷卻劑(coolant)為氣態,此冷卻劑因為帶有輻射,所以不能隨意排放更換,故需要另一熱交換系統將冷卻劑的熱量帶走,並產生動力,此種冷卻上述冷卻劑的物質就可以是水。接著用水來推動渦輪,可直接推動大軸,或是用來供應電力給馬達使用。 |
Supp 於 2004/06/23 01:37 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
關於尾流追蹤魚雷 請教關於尾流追蹤魚雷的幾個問題,尾流追蹤魚雷的感測器為何? 是否需要搭載在魚雷的頭端位置? 超高頻聲納是否可用來感測尾流? 尾流追蹤感測器與聲納不能並存在同一顆魚雷上嗎? 特別是一顆反艦魚雷? 尾流魚雷是否會記憶尾流型態? 若船艦改用APU之類的莢艙作橫向推動,是否可避免尾流追蹤魚雷的歸航? |
SANJYSAN 於 2004/06/23 10:03 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
>氣冷應該是指核反應爐的冷卻劑(coolant)為氣態,此冷卻劑因為帶有輻射,所以不能隨意排放更換,故需要另一熱交換系統將冷卻劑的熱量帶走,並產生動力,此種冷卻上述冷卻劑的物質就可以是水。接著用水來推動渦輪,可直接推動大軸,或是用來供應電力給馬達使用。 那麼這和傳統的水冷堆比起來有什麼優勢? |
Pikachuu 於 2004/06/23 10:34 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
>>有一種尚屬於理論研究的系統,即氣態核心反應爐,有別於傳統使用燃料棒的固態核心反應爐.... 哈哈!那麼應該不是筆誤了,還在理論研究的東西不可能這麼快上核潛,更輪不到中共拔頭籌。 |
Pikachuu 於 2004/06/23 10:36 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
>>氣冷堆最好的用途不是水下,甚至也不是商用反應爐(因可以拉水管就沒必要用氣),而是飛行系統這類難以大量取水的環境。簡單來說,對於核動力飛機比較適合。 這樣Freedom跟Justice在大氣層內與地聯作戰時就有動力了.....(冷) |
Supp 於 2004/06/23 10:51 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
那麼這和傳統的水冷堆比起來有什麼優勢? 雖然有大陸人說氣體的焓比起水或液態金屬來得小,但是氣體的熱交換系統,用密密麻麻的氣體管路取代水管,或許可以做得較有效率,反應速度更快。核反應堆需要作防護的地方也包含熱交換系統,若體積縮小,則防護隔艙也可以做得較小,說不定整個隔艙就可以上減震閥了。 |
Supp 於 2004/06/23 11:00 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
10mw高溫氣冷實驗堆堆內構件 誰來研究一下氣冷反應堆的含硼碳磚(在上述技術指標下)可以耐多少溫度的高溫氣體? |
旁觀者2 於 2004/06/23 13:05 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
Pinus兄 我以前對比的網路照片已被我殺掉 我想中國已經盡力降低高度 但受限於原始設計 包括斯諾克管 潛望鏡 雷達 天線 |
軍盲 於 2004/06/23 17:42 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
以下轉自yahoo戰神軍事論壇 http://tw.club.yahoo.com/clubs/godfighter/
此圖看得出中國國產039A宋級改潛艦的進/排水孔其實可以關閉;所以對水下聲噪的影響可能沒有想像中大 |
Pikachuu 於 2004/06/23 18:49 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
多少還是會有影響,因為開口接縫還是不連續面,所以回歸基本還是得把開口數量與形狀從新做一番檢討 |
Zenobia 於 2004/06/23 19:24 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
那麼這和傳統的水冷堆比起來有什麼優勢? 請善用 Google... |
Pinus 於 2004/06/25 14:24 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
抱歉開會去了﹐幾天沒來。 Supp: 尾流追蹤據我所知有光學判別及聲學判別兩種﹐相信也有兩種都兼具的。尾流追蹤 它們應是屬於pattern recognition那種類型﹐大概就是你說的記憶型吧﹖ 感測尾流應還有其它辦法。船的尾流會傳播凱爾文波﹐它的渦度及壓強分佈是大致 旁觀者2兄﹐ 謝謝您的資料。我會仔細再看看。
潛艦戰力之內部結構及補給 PLAN開始注意起整個海軍系統的基本內在結構的課題。這不只是海軍﹐而是整個PLA開 PLA的後勤訓練現在也是以美國為假想敵。2001年的一項後勤演習便是如何偽裝重要 |
李淳風桑 於 2004/06/25 15:01 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
請問 pinus 請問就您所知 尾流追蹤魚雷 有可能可以用假餌尾流(騙)嘛?? |
伊雲 於 2004/06/25 15:03 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
那麼這和傳統的水冷堆比起來有什麼優勢? 記得以前aska有提到一個應該算是蠻重要的優點,就是燃料所需的濃度可以比較低 阿共前陣子買德國的一座濃化廠,阿共的氣冷堆的前景大概也不怎麼樣了吧 水下運作敢用一次式氣體驅動發電.............................輪機長大概會發出綠光 |
伊雲 於 2004/06/25 15:13 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
雖然有大陸人說氣體的焓比起水或液態金屬來得小,但是氣體的熱交換系統,用密密麻麻的氣體管路取代水管,或許可以做得較有效率,反應速度更快。 空氣的Prandtl number太低,光是為了克服熱邊界層問題就完全沒有優勢,反而還倒打一把 |
Pinus 於 2004/06/26 00:05 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
李淳風桑﹐ 理論上是可能的﹐譬如釋放製造尾流的module﹐但是我想成本可能要粉大。對了﹐ 由於困難度不小﹐目前似乎集中在“硬殺”技術﹐即如何發現﹐然後毀滅之(例如用 |
李淳風桑 於 2004/06/26 07:53 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
非常謝謝 pinus 兄的回答 頂禮膜拜中... 水中潛艦的運動和感知比魚雷慢很多 的確粉難躲開 |
Pinus 於 2004/06/26 13:19 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
李淳風桑﹐ 毋免客氣﹐大家共勉。 潛艦科技 北京培植水下戰力的遠景繫於他們能否在潛艦科技方面做出傲人成績來。目前似乎 看來要派些人去收集PLAN編列湖北佬及東北佬食物款項多少﹐便可知道他們潛艦研 和這些研究活動互補的是越來越多的與潛艦有關的間諜活動。中國水文研究船近來 |
Supp 於 2004/06/26 13:28 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
先前大俠兄說他知道六零年代左右的尾流追蹤魚雷有兩種模式,蘇聯是用化學感測的方法,因為螺槳攪過的地方,溶氧量及其他海水化學等會產生變化。而美國的好像是採用聲學模式,不過由於六零年代的電子產品還很不理想,所以同種魚雷有兩個型號,一種是傳統聲納,另一種是尾追聲納。 尾流追蹤據我所知有光學判別及聲學判別兩種﹐相信也有兩種都兼具的。 水下運作敢用一次式氣體驅動發電.............................輪機長大概會發出綠光 發光的不只輪機長吧.... ^^; |
海國右衛門 於 2004/06/26 18:24 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
這部中國潛艦小說, 不, 神話, 比金庸武俠還誇張, 娛樂性還蠻有的, 不過看看就好^^.
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Pinus 於 2004/06/26 22:15 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
Supp:波動使水面彎曲﹐就像透鏡。光通過不同曲率水面﹐產生不同明暗條紋﹐便可 用來識別。 |
Supp 於 2004/06/27 01:22 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
波動使水面彎曲﹐就像透鏡。光通過不同曲率水面﹐產生不同明暗條紋﹐便可用來識別。 晚上就甭玩了嗎? ^^; |
Pinus 於 2004/06/27 10:20 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
任何依靠“被動”“可見光”的武器在晚上都是沒輒﹐但這不是唯一選項。。。 我們如果認為PLA將來的科技進展完全是依靠俄國專家的話﹐那就大錯特錯。有許多 從PLAN近期焦點集中在柴電潛艦的指標看來﹐北京的近期焦點便是台灣問題。關心 有中國特色的封鎖 另一方面﹐PLA增強的潛艦能力及數量卻提供了另一威嚇台灣的戰略﹕海軍封鎖。由 (美國人看得很清楚。台灣反對黨們這些害台的扯後腿動作是把台灣人民和民主友邦 近來有篇中國文章強烈顯示PLA在認真考慮封鎖台灣的辦法。在檢討1962年的古巴飛 (這大概就是胡錦濤的“淡淡的鄉愁”) 中國的柴電潛艦對這個令人不安的可能局面具有決定性的作用。運用它的一些老潛 (以上當然假設美國日本還在睡覺﹐其實這時台灣也應該早已在中國港口布雷﹐並宣 |
海國右衛門 於 2004/06/27 22:15 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
請問 Pinus 大大 對 NO:208_37 小說中 所提到的 『磁波聲納』有何評論? |
Pinus 於 2004/06/27 23:45 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
↑只能說﹐該文作者既不讀歷史﹐又缺乏想像力。 二次大戰﹐美國潛艦對付日本航運船隊的魚雷就是追蹤磁場和用聲納。追蹤潛艦的 辦法之一﹐也是可以用磁場異常來辦﹐反潛機就有那種裝備。我想PLAN的將領們還 不至于像這位作者那樣阿達。 二次大戰末期﹐日本船運遭魚雷擊沉反而減少﹐您道是為何﹖原來此時日本鋼材已 沒有什麼單獨的磁波﹐磁場改變一定伴隨電場的改變﹐因而產生電磁波。要不然馬克 |
Pinus 於 2004/06/28 06:15 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
台灣的反潛戰潛力 (警告﹕ 看了下面這段﹐不要得心臟病喲﹗這是假設台灣的反潛戰力--包括目前吵 當美國在思考它的方案時﹐台灣海軍可能會試圖自行衝破封鎖﹐ 但是成功機會不會 使得這情況更糟的是﹐中國有大量的潛艦可以部署在這個基本上是淺而吵雜的水域﹐ 許多人提到潛艦是最佳的反潛平臺﹐目前正有許多人在談到要擴充台灣僅有4艘柴 我想作者並沒有考慮PLAN將領心理的“發毛指數”﹐因為這裡作者假定台灣是完全 |
伊雲 於 2004/06/28 17:34 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
請教光學判別是以何原理? 裝上一圈的Micro-S^3? 發光的不只輪機長吧.... ^^; |
Supp 於 2004/06/28 21:27 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
Submarine Review Pinus兄,您真是潛艦的寶庫啊!! ^^ 再請教一下,這本Submarine Review期刊台灣哪邊找得到? 我到央圖的西文期刊檢索並未看到任何潛艦相關期刊,網路上的http://www.navalsubleague.com也無法檢索過去的文章? 另外上述網站還提供了一個連結是到美國海軍一本雜誌Undersea Warfare,好佳在網站可以查到過去的文章。 |
Supp 於 2004/06/28 21:39 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
Humble Origins 以下篇幅是從上述網頁上摘錄 Back from the Brink China’s submarine force benefited significantly when the chaos of the Cultural Revolution was replaced by the rigid and total militarization of Chinese society in the early 1970s. This change was due partly to a growing perception of threats from the Soviet Union. Production rates of the PLAN’s “Romeo”-class submarines trebled, to approximately six per year by 1974, and by 1978, China had more than 60 of these ships. China’s first indigenous anti-ship torpedoes, the Yu-1 and Yu-2, also entered serial production at this time, to be followed a decade later by an ASW homing torpedo, the Yu-3. During the mid-1970s, Chinese submarines began to venture further afield, penetrating the first island chain (the line from the Philippine Islands, through Taiwan to the Ryukus), and even the second island chain (formed by Indonesia, the Marianas Archipelago, and the main islands of Japan) for the first time. Most significantly, the first, long-delayed Han-class SSN became operational in 1974, although its propulsion system was highly susceptible to steam and primary leaks and reportedly exposed the crew to significant radiation dangers. The ship also lacked weaponry and basic electronic systems. Deng Xiaoping’s ascendance in the late 1970s signaled a welcome turn to more pragmatic policies in all aspects of Chinese governance. Even so, the submarine force could well have suffered from both significant reductions in China’s defense budget and a new emphasis on China’s ground forces after Vietnam successfully fought China to a bloody draw in 1979. Indeed, the nuclear propulsion program did suffer serious budget cuts during the early 1980s, but since decommissioning the oldest diesel boats increased overall efficiency, the PLAN submarine force made incremental progress. First, there was the successful submerged launch of the JL-1, China’s first SLBM from the “Golf”-class SSB in 1982. In 1985, a Han-class SSN stayed under for 20,000 nautical miles and 84 days. Taking advantage of China’s new openness to foreign technology, the PLAN bought French DUUX-5 sonars for its submarines, while initiating a major program to decrease the acoustic signatures of its existing submarine fleet. As the Soviet threat receded under Gorbachev, the PLAN’s SSBN project apparently faced the threat of termination, but the successful submerged launch of a JL-1 from the new Xia-class SSBN in 1988 kept it alive. Concurrently, major geopolitical shifts were underway that would provide new impetus to Chinese seapower as it neared the 21st century. Today and Tomorrow Pivotal events at that time were the Tiananmen Square Massacre in June 1989, the Persian Gulf War, and the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991. These developments both eliminated the perception of a Russian threat and raised the specter of ideological and even military conflict with the increasingly powerful United States. Moreover, the ongoing Chinese economic miracle that started in 1978 created plentiful resources that could now be devoted safely to maritime defense, at a time when the poverty-stricken Russians were eager to oblige with aerospace and maritime technology at cut-rate prices. Under the direction of submariner Admiral Zhang Lianzhong, the PLAN placed orders for four diesel submarines from the Russians in 1993: two export-version type 877 “Kilos” and two improved type 636 “Kilos,” all delivered by 1998. In 2002, Beijing agreed to purchase eight more type 636 “Kilos” with delivery to occur in 2005-07. As part of this deal, the Chinese reportedly will also acquire Russia’s lethal SS-N-X-27 supersonic anti-ship cruise missiles with a range of over 100 nautical miles. Moscow is also selling its advanced Test-71 and 53-56KE wake homing These efforts are complemented by domestic production. In addition to retaining approximately 30 aging “Romeos” and continuing to build the derivative Ming class – with 20 now in the force – China has begun series production of its indigenously designed and manufactured Song class, the first of which was launched in 1991. The Songs – probably at least five, with eight or more under construction – incorporate advanced foreign technology and can launch anti-ship cruise missiles while submerged. China is also building the Type 093 SSN, with the first already nearing sea trials. Beijing boasts that this submarine will have performance equal to a Los Angeles-class SSN. Also on the ways is the Type 094 SSBN, which analysts expect at sea as early as 2005 with 16 8,000-kilometer nuclear-armed missiles. PLAN leaders are ambitiously developing the human dimension of their underwater force as well by elevating the status of their professional non-commissioned officers in an effort to enhance and retain their skills. China’s admirals have also acknowledged that they have to compete for skilled labor by increasing the pay of some ranks by 100 percent in 1999-2000 – and the PLAN is aggressively increasing the number of officers holding advanced degrees. Training in the PLAN submarine force is strongly influenced by U.S. capabilities and operations. There is significant emphasis on mine Conclusion A group of PLAN strategists summarized their analysis of the mid-1990s revolution in military affairs (RMA) as follows: “We can conclude that during the First World War, the dominant vessel was the battleship, and in World War Two, it was the aircraft carrier. In future global Even while suffering from slavish imitation, bizarre happenings, and tragic loss, the PLAN submarine force has embodied some of China’s most impressive technical achievements. Indeed, last April’s submarine accident was not the PLAN’s first nor will it be the last. However, the borrowed genesis and troubled adolescence of PLAN submarines should not obscure the fact that China has created a viable foundation for building a potent undersea fleet. Moreover, this newly-wealthy nation is well into a thorough modernization of its infrastructure for basic and applied research and its educational and management practices. China is well-positioned for rapid progress. Since the 9/11 attacks, the U.S. and China have entered an unexpected period of bilateral cooperation. But even as Washington is clearly focused on more immediate problems in Iraq and elsewhere, Beijing’s military modernization continues at a rapid pace. War between the United States and a rising China is hardly inev-itable, particularly if our diplomats find a creative solution to the Taiwan issue, but if hostilities do break out, the American submarine force will undoubtedly be in the thick of the fight. |
Pinus 於 2004/06/28 23:34 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
Supp兄﹐ 阿理馬幫幫忙﹐等一下一堆壁虎笑到吸盤不穩﹐跌了一地。 國防政策評論,第三卷,第一期,二○○二年秋季 台灣水域的潛艦作戰 |
Supp 於 2004/06/28 23:55 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
Pinus兄,好不容易可以抓到您寫錯的地方,此文是在第一卷的第三期, 台灣水域的潛艦作戰 |
Pinus 於 2004/06/29 01:48 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
Supp兄﹐ 十分感溫(^^)。 魯斯克的觀點與這裡兩位的觀點之主要差異在於﹕ 魯斯克把自己當成是有決心維護台灣人民及領土的潛艦指揮官﹐而台灣中央政府確 而這裡兩位作者則認為台灣人民都像台北股市或聯合報、中國時報、世界日報裡描 由於咱們現在是兩種人都有﹐所以兩種說法都有參考價值﹐您說是不﹖ |
chaos 於 2004/06/29 05:23 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
雖然有點不符合主題,但也可鑑識一下 新聞來源:http://www.singpao.com/20040626/international/570114.html 香港成報 摘錄其中一段,據成報報導 •••039A型宋級潛艇使用的柴油機是德國廠商授權中國製造的,和德國製212/212A/214潛艦使用的柴油機是同一系列。除了聲納傳言是法國進口外,其他設備都是國產為主。有消息稱,這艘新下水的039A安裝了先進的國產燃料電池AIP(絕氣推進系統)。除裝備魚五改型魚雷外,039A還裝備有可從魚雷管發射的潛射反艦/攻陸雙用導彈和反潛導彈。039A還裝備「長纓一號改」反潛導彈(CY-1改進型),其最大射程約四十公里。••• |
fer-de-lance 於 2004/06/29 06:39 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
>尾流追蹤魚雷 有可能可以用假餌尾流(騙)嘛?? It is almost impossible to generate a substitute wake to lure the wake homer away. The difficulty lies in the need to displace water to create the wake. Previous experience showed that it is almost impossible to generate a pressure wave similar to a 4,000t ship ... without using a 4,000t ship ... Various things were tried in WWII to try and generate pressure waves (a wake) to actuate pressure mines - none terribly successfully. Well, minesweepers towing heavy barges could generate the needed wake but it was not always clear whether mines could be detonated far enough from the minesweeper not to blow it up! Sure, you can tow a heavy barge behind you to attract the wake-homer but you would be imposing great limitations on yourself. The British have done some remarkable things in recent years with torpedo defense. Some are still very confidential (hush, hush, eh what). It has been known for a long time that setting off a series of explosive charges in sequence could generate a pressure wave similar to a ship. This could potentially disrupt the true wake even if it could not generate a substitute wake to decoy the wake homer. What we do not know is how much explosives is needed which would determine whether a practical decoy can be made! The Brits have a system that can produce a long lasting rumble to disrupt torpedo sonars. Since the wake homer uses an upward looking sonar to detect the edge of a wake, one wonders if that sonar can be degraded using these countermeasures - properly placed in the wake. (Anything that messes with the signal-to-noise ratio may be useful). The key to effective torpedo countermeasures starts with the ability to detect and classify an incoming threat - hence the focus on towed sensors and classification software that came out of the Surface Ship Torpedo Defense or SSTD program (now evolved into the TRAFS program in the USN and TRAMP in the RN). The British, once again, made one of the biggest contribution with the towed linear array that can resolve the port-starboard ambiguity at high frequencies. The ROCN has this array in service within the ATAS system. At the higher frequencies produced by torpedoes speeding through the water, this array would be able to tell whether it was coming from the left or the right - which is kind of important considering! Once the threat is identified and localized, there is the small matter of dealing with it. The USN seems to have come to the conclusion that a hard-kill option is important. Earlier, they experimented with a Mk46 torpedo launched over the side. Now they or more precisely, one of the Applied Physics Labs from a famous university, is working on a SCEPS powered miniature torpedo small enough to be launched from a submarine decoy tube. So, if you thought the Mk 50 ALWT program was dead after a short production run - think again. A much smaller off-spring is alive and well. The high speed that SCEPS gives may no longer be needed to counter 40kt Soviet subs but it is mighty useful for dealing with another high speed target - a torpedo. |
Pinus 於 2004/06/29 13:03 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
Indeed the wake of a large ship is difficult to reproduce realistically. However, I cannot stop thinking that wake-homers are actually bird-brain torpedos because they follow the wake steadfastly. Anything that are steadfast are usually not very smart - they have to stay in the wake region that is so predictable! I guess the problem is in the detection. Once detected, the rest should be a small matter like you said. One hard kill possibility is the supersonic projectiles. One question is: do wake homers explode upon collision or they will find their way to go beneath the keel and detonate there? The latter seems to cause more severe damage to the ship. But I dont know the answer. |
fer-de-lance 於 2004/06/29 13:29 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
I did not say it would be a small matter once the wake homer is detected - far from that. The hard-kill systems are not yet operational - all you would be relying on (if you use US systems) would be a classified mode of operation of a well-known torpedo countermeasures system ... Wake homers can be bird-brained - ie it only knows how to cross wakes and ladder up until it reaches the ship or it can employ multi-modal guidance. If it was a bird-brained wake crosser - there are situations where (according to a NATO Navy c.o. who knows about these things) the torpedo could be confused enough to ladder AWAY from the ship. I don t know how - hard to imagine having enough time for a ship to do that - but the guy claims it can be done. Might need to be able to turn VERY tightly ... As for the kill mechanism - under-the-keel is always the most damaging. Since the wake-homer uses an upward looking sonar to detect the wake, it is not difficult to imagine it using the same device to detect the ship - and set off the warhead ... These days, with new exotic techniques to get even more brisance out of the same mass of explosive, you will not need much to snap a keel. I am always impressed by the test shot of the Mk 46 mod5A(S) which, first of all, homed on a surfaced sub. Then, there was an under-the-keel detonation that sank the target sub - very impressive. |
Supp 於 2004/06/29 13:48 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
所以兩種說法都有參考價值﹐您說是不﹖ 其實作為一位軍人,對其宣誓的國家應該負有的責任,我想魯斯克和我國海軍潛艦官兵是並無二致的。 魯斯克和大多數潛艦官兵所想的都一樣,就是攻勢思想,如何把戰爭帶到敵人的家門口,就是潛艦作戰歷史的精華。魯斯克在文中細數了許多絕氣系統的優勢,以及操控性的重要,在在都提示我們攻勢思想的是要以技術作為背景。 |
海國右衛門 於 2004/06/29 15:19 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
Supp兄 您 54 樓的見解很精闢, 建議送請海軍當局參考. 並連結到潛艦採購那欄 |
Pinus 於 2004/06/30 02:04 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
Supp兄﹐ 聽君一言﹐令人感到台灣的軍隊愛台灣﹐真是台灣國民的幸福。 fer-de-lance: Thanks for the input.
台灣購買潛艦的時機和進度也對這8艘新潛艦能幫助台灣反潛戰力的看法打了些折扣。 |
陳述 於 2004/06/30 08:28 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
〉〉〉摘錄其中一段,據成報報導 •••039A型宋級潛艇使用的柴油機是德國廠商授權中國製造的,和德國製212/212A/214潛艦使用的柴油機是同一系列。除了聲納傳言是法國進口外,其他設備都是國產為主。有消息稱,這艘新下水的039A安裝了先進的國產燃料電池AIP(絕氣推進系統)。除裝備魚五改型魚雷外,039A還裝備有可從魚雷管發射的潛射反艦/攻陸雙用導彈和反潛導彈。039A還裝備「長纓一號改」反潛導彈(CY-1改進型),其最大射程約四十公里。•••
039A的照片在中國軍網上隨處可見,但正在上海建造的新潛照片根本不讓貼。 |
陳述 於 2004/06/30 09:09 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
〉〉〉魯斯克把自己當成是有決心維護台灣人民及領土的潛艦指揮官﹐而台灣中央政府確 確實實地把台灣當成一個獨立國家來運作。在此情況下﹐只要台灣安全遭受威脅﹐ 台灣軍隊會採取主動攻勢來遏阻中國侵略。您可以清楚看出﹐他的策略就是把台灣 的潛艦兵力部署在中國沿海。中國漫長的海岸線正符合可使中國『無所不備﹐則無 所不寡』的條件。您可以想像如果有一具台灣的UUV在黃埔江口或大沽口被發現﹐消 息傳開來後所引起的社會震蕩﹗﹗潛艦作戰就有這種不成比例的威力。
而臺灣的柴潛對基地的依靠是不可或缺的。一旦基地被封鎖或摧毀,潛艦還能出入自如,正常 不要太相信什麽消息傳開後的、、、看看二戰戰史,德國的潛艦對英國的打擊不能說不巨大, 戰爭的最終勝負,在於摧毀對方的戰爭潛力,動搖對方的戰爭意志,臺灣做得到嗎?或者說, 不過,這說的太遠了。中國與臺灣的戰爭是實際上已經開打,你沒看見中台正在劇烈的軍備 |
Pinus 於 2004/06/30 10:18 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
>不要太相信什麼消息傳開後的、、、看看二戰戰史,德國的潛艦對英國的打擊 >不能說不巨大, >已經遠遠超出傳言的範圍,但如不能完全封死英國,英國就會堅持下去。 英國是英國﹐ 中國是中國﹐兩國的社會形態是很難相類比的。更重要的是制海權還 >戰爭的最終勝負,在於摧毀對方的戰爭潛力,動搖對方的戰爭意志,臺灣做得>到 那就看台灣政府及人民(包括內政、經濟、軍事、外交、 etc) 的共同努力了。有人 >不過,這說的太遠了。中國與臺灣的戰爭是實際上已經開打,你沒看見中台正>在 台灣資訊完全公開﹐所以你看到的大致就是這樣了。可是中國資訊並不公開﹐你知 |
Pinus 於 2004/06/30 10:20 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
(續前) 簡而言之﹐台灣是不願意或沒有能力投下必須的資源來進行一個對持久潛艦戰的像 樣抵抗。所以在目前或可見的將來﹐台灣看起來是不太能應付這樣的局勢的。那麼 更凸顯得一個問題是﹕美國能夠衝破這個封鎖嗎﹖當然可以﹐但是PLAN潛艦戰力的 增強會使得在台灣週邊行動的美國海軍的風險增大不少。 反潛戰本來就很難﹐而現在更難 自從冷戰結束以後﹐美國的反潛戰力萎縮了不少。歐漢龍(OHanlon--一個布魯金斯 (註﹕歐漢龍在2000年寫過一篇『為什麼中國無能征服台灣﹖』登於《International 有位PLAN的戰略家就正確地指出﹕“在極端寬廣的海洋裡想要找出潛艦的蹤跡是極 在冷戰期中﹐美國航空母艦載運之S-3 維京 (Viking) 機就是極有效的獵潛機﹐能
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Supp 於 2004/06/30 10:20 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
臺灣的潛艦基地只有一處左營基地 還有蘇澳,東邊是岩岸,可建造防空襲之潛艦岩洞。 中國與臺灣的戰爭是實際上已經開打 現今的情勢,與歷朝歷代稍有不同之處有三,一是台灣引入外國勢力支持,「美帝」是也。二是台海已然平靜數十年,大陸的銳氣已經喪失大半,要再重新振文伐武砥兵礪馬有一定的困難。三是現代戰爭和第一波戰爭截然不同,總體的鬥爭已然在兵力鬥爭之上,戰場上的鬥爭決定於平日準備的鬥爭。 |
Agent Toganator 於 2004/06/30 10:42 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
http://www.kojii.net/jdw/jdw040623.html US Navy tackles submarine dilemma 米海軍は、将来の予算支出に関する計画をまとめるに際して、2 つの重要な |
Supp 於 2004/07/01 00:51 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
美國能夠衝破這個封鎖嗎﹖ 無論是我們或是老共都知道美軍可以衝破老共的封鎖,問題是多久? 是否長到足夠老共發動大規模的侵入戰? 按照去年「漢光演習」所謂料敵從寬的前提下,老共只要擋住美軍幾天光景,並且能夠取得台灣海峽的局部優勢,亦即掃開大部分之水下水上戰力,就能夠配合台灣島內之特種單位發動登陸作戰。 老共自製的潛艦姑且不論,光屬Kilo級潛艦即有十二艘之多。按照三三三制,則意味著Kilo級潛艦隨時有四艘能夠盯梢我軍潛艦,至少能夠掌握進出港的行蹤。其餘次級潛艦與水上兵力可以如同美軍一般隨時掌握我軍潛艦的持續動態,最後再把快速核動力潛艦拉到外海去攔截船團。而美軍僅存的54艘潛艦若依照三三三制,則只有十八艘可隨時動支,傳統上要分別部署到大西洋,印度洋與太平洋,亦即隨時能夠保持在台海周邊反應的可能一支手的手指頭就數完了。 反潛戰還需要掌握戰場空優,當然和上述結論相同,美軍確實能夠掌握空優,不過若要能夠迅速達到此一目的,並且在此同時進行空中的反潛戰,恐怕美軍要能夠迅速調集數以倍計的各式兵力才行。 有人對台灣情況很早就很悲觀﹐但是我看本版樂觀的人不少。 |
Pinus 於 2004/07/01 02:26 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
Supp兄﹐ 我是屬於A+級的樂觀派啦﹐我認為情勢不至於落到那樣『悲壯』的地步。其實台灣 然而只要認清台灣局勢﹐我們就知要維持台海的安全﹐美國的後援是絕對需要的﹐ 如我前所言﹐這兩位作者完全是以『料敵從寬』的角度出發的﹐把敵現有的一當成 本篇內容經論壇管理編修於2004/07/01/12:18 |
Pinus 於 2004/07/01 04:32 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
美國的SSN可以進行有條不紊的搜索-獵殺中國潛艦的作戰﹐特別是在台灣東部深海水 域﹐那裡美國潛艦可以大力發揮它們的優越科技、武器、及訓練。然而就如一位分 析家指出的﹕“淺水區是中國潛艦的理想行動區。。。它們可以躲在海下的溫水層 之間﹐在岩石和淺灘間溜來溜去﹐而那裡聲音是很渾濁不清的”(我想作者故意忘掉 了﹐這對中國潛艦也同樣是一種困擾﹐二戰期間﹐美國潛艦USS TANG (SS306)就在 台灣海峽被自己的魚雷幹掉)。在台灣週圍﹐環境極端困難﹐又有大量商船漁船的干 擾來掩蓋安靜的敵方﹐加上PLAN潛艦部隊改進了的反潛武器及數量上的優勢﹐就連 美國潛艦部隊也要頗受考驗。雪上加霜的是﹐台灣海峽之淺使得美國SSN幾乎不可能 在那裡行動。東亞淺水區的水深大都淺於200米。這個從黃海到東海的區域使美國SSN很 難行動和使用武器及施置感應器。台灣西部及北部水域全是這種狀況。 (我想他們有些過甚其辭﹐水深100米絕對夠SSN活動啦。不過台灣海峽一般只有幾十 把上面這些分析綜合起來﹐歐漢龍的估計問題就很明顯了。首先﹐他宣稱“封鎖的 在估計美國海軍現在及未來對付中國潛艦戰力的總體效力﹐歐漢龍的分析又再次錯 歐漢龍的錯誤估計也許來自對冷戰期潛艦行動的誤解。他從某個資料外推而宣稱﹐ |
cobrachen 於 2004/07/01 05:02 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
言論箝制﹐已消音^^﹗ by獨裁網管 勤務組 本篇內容經論壇管理編修於2004/07/01/12:19 |
Pinus 於 2004/07/01 05:57 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
Cobrachen兄﹐ 很報歉造成你的誤會。那段言論不是針對以前的台海犧牲者而言--對他們而言﹐他 不過你的意見很對﹐的確不宜在此欄討論這些題外話﹐所以就此打住吧。 |
雪風 於 2004/07/01 06:15 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
言論箝制﹐已消音^^﹗ by獨裁網管 勤務組 本篇內容經論壇管理編修於2004/07/01/12:21 |
雪風 於 2004/07/01 06:19 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
言論箝制﹐已消音^^﹗ by獨裁網管 勤務組 本篇內容經論壇管理編修於2004/07/01/12:21 |
Pinus 於 2004/07/01 06:23 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
雪風兄﹐ 感謝你的回應。不過如小弟上之所言﹐咱們對那話題就此打住如何﹖ |
Pinus 於 2004/07/01 06:53 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
最晚從1996起﹐PLAN就已準備和美國海軍一戰了。以是之故﹐PLAN的潛艦政策是在清 楚了解與美國海軍爭雄是不對稱的局面下發展出來的。
(關於PLA的不對稱戰術﹐ 有篇Thomas J. Christensen寫的“Posing Problems without 在這種情況下﹐PLAN的潛艦部隊了解它們必須用新奇的戰術來克服它們和其科技先 近來的一篇PLAN潛艦演習的敘述中詳細地提到潛艦如何關掉引擎停在海底或是在溫 以前關於PLAN政策的討論有人曾提過一個有潛在重要性的事實﹐那就是中國的潛艦 |
fer-de-lance 於 2004/07/01 10:32 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
Guys, I am glad you have cut the political discussion short. That is quite non-productive. Yukikaze, if you want to criticize anybody about investing in the PRC, try the most of the rest of Taiwan. This over-reliance on the easy money is a strategic vulnerability. All the ChiCom has to do is to have the Bank of China impose exchange control and a lot of Taiwanese businesses are going to be in big trouble. However, by going to a more open economy, the PRC has also increased its reliance on imported oil. The latest figures estimate the 2004 PRC domestic consumption of oil to reach 300 million tons, of which 120 million tons, over a third, would have to be imported. Most of the oil comes from the Gulf - think choke points at the Lombok and Malacca Straits. However, imports from Russian are also up 3-fold from a year ago. The qualitative improvements the PLAN subs will pose an increasing threat. Better signal processing and towed linear arrays are going to increase their abilities to detect, localize and classify targets at greater ranges. However, there are some simple things that will help cramp the style of these guys. One way is rapid laying of defensive mine fields, such as using C-130 aided by GPS (pushing CSIST WSM out the stern ramp). PLAN submarine mine detection/avoidance is very limited. Might not get too many takers for submarine mining missions near Taiwan if they knew the area is already mined! Strategic ASW systems like SURTASS and the LFA active adjunct would certainly help. For years, we had taken as the gospel truth that all active sonars < 1kHz were not available for export. There are signs that this may change ... The PLAN tells a lot of fanciful stories about their subs sitting on the bottom pretending to be a reef. Problem is, in real life, if you are hanging out in the shallows with very little sea room to maneuvre AND the other side has good MAD, high resolution sonars (such as AQS-18 supported by an FFT processor) and Mk 46 mod5A(S) - that sort of behavior would not be very habit-forming. |
HOTARU 於 2004/07/01 11:51 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
言論箝制﹐已消音^^﹗ by獨裁網管 勤務組 本篇內容經論壇管理編修於2004/07/01/12:22 |
Pinus 於 2004/07/01 12:16 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
fer-de-lance, Can you comment on the submerged rising mines and why PLAN is so interested? |
Pinus 於 2004/07/01 12:29 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
>Can you comment on the submerged rising mines and why PLAN is so interested? Sorry, it should be deep water rising mines. My question is that they cannot be deployed in shallow waters such as in the Taiwan Strait, so they intend to mine in the water east of Taiwan? |
fer-de-lance 於 2004/07/01 12:35 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
Rocket Propelled Rising Mines allows mining of deeper waters - continental shelf. Extends the area threatened to areas way beyond conventional moored or bottom mines. Besides, the Commies seem to have a rocket/phallic fixation ... (老)二砲。 During the Cold War, the Soviet Union had mines the NATO called Cluster Gulf and Cluster Bay. They were laid in much deeper waters than the early versions of PAP 104 mine clearance ROV could go. That led to exotic solutions like the Extra Deep Armed Team Sweep (EDATS) towed by big steel hulled (ie. deep water use only) River class minesweepers. |
Pinus 於 2004/07/01 13:15 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
>rocket/phallic fixation ... (老)二砲。 Haha...I like that and its connotation. Thanks. |
Pinus 於 2004/07/02 03:05 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
(續前) 思考起來﹐未來中國的潛艦戰力可能會被導向反潛戰場﹐依靠架設於海床上的遙控 另外﹐PLAN也會企圖用他們潛艦數量上的優勢來對付美國較優質的潛艦艦隊。那些 不過儘管他們對反潛戰日益注意﹐PLAN的文件在在指出﹐他們發展政策的焦點還是 偵伺航空母艦 中國將用新一代的大氣及太空資源來追蹤美國空母戰鬥群的動向。事實上﹐北京最 中國戰略家們也沒有低估了美國航空母艦戰鬥群的可怕打擊力量﹐然而仍相信他們 中國的策劃家們遵照俄國傳統﹐相信一個航空母艦戰鬥群可以用多波及多向量的巡 |
Pinus 於 2004/07/02 06:38 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
有為戰略家還提出包括“衝散隊形”以消滅個別艦隻及攻擊那些易挨打的給航空母艦 戰鬥群補給油料及其它必需品的船艦。中國作者們充分記載著二次大戰期間有17艘 空母為潛艦所沉。PLAN的戰略家們也從航空母艦戰鬥群在和盟友海軍反潛戰演習中 被很原始的柴油潛艦穿透的事件得到自信(^_^﹐希望不是看了“潛艦總動員”)。根 據中國方面的出版物﹐2001及2002在中國南方沿海之PLAN演習就是假定有“美國航 空母艦的干涉”來作的。最後﹐由於航空母艦被認為是載有“大量彈藥﹐飛機燃料﹐ 船舶燃料”﹐所以被擊的話﹐一定損失慘重。 看來這不只是拍胸脯誇勇而已。中國潛艦的潛在威脅在廣大亞太地區都被注意到了。 證據顯示中國想要成為一個一流的潛艦霸權。僅管PLAN的現代化方案中有炫人廣泛 在思考中國的海事現代化中﹐西方的國防分析家們常低估了這威脅﹐表示對PLAN能 然而另一方面﹐僅從過去的情況來外推未來這種陷阱以致低估了對手也是古不乏例。 中國並不是第一個陸權國在走向海洋時把資本不成比例地投在潛艦。雖然德國及蘇 (哇﹗終於”搞“完了)。 |
GulDukat 於 2004/07/08 08:00 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
Thanks Pinus for the detail discussion. Personally, I think military action is only one way of solving the taiwan issue. There are many other possiblities, after all a war would be devastating to both of the people. The PRC could employ economical means to unify Taiwan, by the same token, The ROC could also attack sensitive targets of PRC as a way to defer the invasion. However this issue is going to end, I am deeply concerned about the consequences to both people. I can only pray for peace. |
toga 於 2004/07/13 14:15 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
俄羅斯最新柴電殺手力作,ROCN水面艦隊未來最深沉的夢魘???∼Amur/Lada SSK http://www.milparade.ru/special/s462.htm ”The submarine has been conceived as a kind of an underwater sea hunter, capable of destroying any targets - surface naval ships, transport vessels, or submarines - using torpedoes, missiles, mines and also with the help of frogmen” ”The low noise of the submarine equipment, use of state-of-the-art acoustic protection systems, unique engineering solutions suggested by specialists of Rubin , the Krylov Central Research Institute and other Russian Navy research organizations enable us to predict that the Amur 1450 will be 8-10 times quieter than preceding generation Kilo submarines. ” ”The sonar equipment includes highly sensitive direction listening antennas - two bow antennas and two sideboard antennas at the forward end of the submarine. The antennas are made as large as possible. They occupy most of the forward end surface. No similar submarines in Russia or abroad have sonar antennas covering such a large area. The shape of the forward end has been thoroughly optimized hydrodynamically and tested in the large cavitation tunnel at the Krylov Central Research Institute in St. Petersburg.” |
Pinus 於 2004/07/14 02:55 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
↑至今尚未聽到有哪個國家買了這種潛艦。有人知道嗎﹖ >The submarine has been conceived as a kind of an underwater sea hunter, capable of destroying any targets 他很聰明地避免了在句尾加上一句 “without been detected and destroyed。
I suspect that the reduction in high frequency noises is compensated by the increase of low frequency noises, if the total acoustic energy is conserved. I dont knoiw whether or not the latter is true. |
fer-de-lance 於 2004/07/14 12:09 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
The Russkiys had a heck of a time with noise signature in their old boats. The Hotel Echo and November classes used the same plants and had a very distinctive low frequency noise signature - commonly referred to as the HENs. Even the more modern Charlie class had characteristic lines at 300Hz and 450Hz that can be used to identify it. Like all SSKs, Kilos can be very quiet when running very slowly on electric motors. There are no cooling pumps that had to be run constantly in the older SSNs. Only when it runs its diesels to charge batteries would there be an appreciable low frequency noise signature. With better isolation of the diesels from the hull using resilient mounts with or without active noise cancellation (same principle as your Bose headphones), you can probably get that level of improvement in noise levels claimed for the Amur 1450 ove rthe Kilo. But if both were running slowly on motors, there should be little to choose between them in terms of silencing. Another area where there can be improvement is in the broadband flow noises when the hull is moving quickly through the water. The older SSKs like the Romeos and Foxtrots had problems with vortices generated along the side of their hulls which, when hitting the propellers, amplified their noises (making it much easier to count the blade rate). These vortices hitting the limber holes also contributed to increased noise. The Kilos were a great improvement but at higher speeds, there would still be broadband noise. Better hull designs and possibly new materials could reduce broadband all allow faster speeds to be reached without great increases in noise. |
SK2 於 2004/07/14 12:47 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
to fer-de-lance: what do you think about this? |
Pinus 於 2004/07/14 13:27 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
Another area where there can be improvement is in the broadband flow noises when the hull is moving quickly through the water. The older SSKs like the Romeos and Foxtrots had problems with vortices generated along the side of their hulls which, when hitting the propellers, amplified their noises (making it much easier to count the blade rate). These vortices hitting the limber holes also contributed to increased noise. The Kilos were a great improvement but at higher speeds, there would still be broadband noise. Better hull designs and possibly new materials could reduce broadband all allow faster speeds to be reached without great increases in noise. It probably takes a combination of sonars and blue-green lasers to get these guys. |
fer-de-lance 於 2004/07/16 11:32 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
Blue-green lasers are only useful in shallow waters and you would need to be almost right on top of the target. Low Frequency Active adjunct to SURTASS is what you need for detecting and tracking quite subs from really long ranges. If only we could placate the save-the-whales (cetacean protection) environmental lobby ... SK2, the photo shows a Kilo hull with sail-mounted planes. The planes look very suspect as the starboard one is longer than the one on the portside. Viewed from that aspect, the reverse should be true. Where the portside plane connects to the sail, there is also what appears to be a fairing - not seen in any other ChiCom or Russkiy sub. Where the starboard plane should have connected to the sail, the plane structure overlaps the front of the sail all the way to the line hanging the signal flags. Note also the smudge around the edges of the starboard plane where it obscures the tug behind (better seen under bigger magnification); sloppy Photoshop work. |
SK2 於 2004/07/16 11:52 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
thanks alot fer-de-lance! |
John 於 2004/07/16 20:10 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
根據美國國防與情報官員的說法,中國海軍已建造出一種新型攻擊潛艇: 圖片: http://www.wforum.com/specials/upload/ChineseNewSub_1_big.jpg http://www.wforum.com/specials/upload/newsubtower.jpg |
Luke-Skywalker 於 2004/07/16 20:41 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
↑這是PS的,詳下列網址之討論: http://211.78.82.202/cgi-bin/topic.cgi?forum=32&topic;=241 http://mdc.idv.tw/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=3220 |
Luke-Skywalker 於 2004/07/16 22:01 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
真誇張,竟有美國的大報社深信不疑.......... http://news.yam.com/cna/international/news/200407/200407160166.html (中央社記者鍾行憲台北十六日電)華盛頓時報今天報導,根據美國國防與情報官員的說法,中共為了加強海軍軍力已建造出美國情報單位不知道的一種新型攻擊潛艇。 報導指出,這種潛艇幾週前首次被人發現,五角大廈已將它列為元級潛艇。在中國大陸武漢造船廠水中此一潛艇的一張照片,本週被張貼在一個中國網際網路網站上,一位美國國防官員證實照片中的就是新型元級潛艇。 一位官員表示,此一新型潛艇對美國情報單位來說是個「技術意外」,因為它們並不知道北京在建造新的非核子動力攻擊潛艇。要求匿名的官員說,美國情報單位目前對此一新型潛艇的細節所知無幾,但是相信它是柴油動力,而非核子動力潛艇。 國防分析家認為,似乎是結合中共本身發展的硬體與俄羅斯武器系統的此一新型潛艇顯示,中共正在加強潛艇部隊以準備因應台海衝突。 位於阿拉斯加的中共軍事問題專家崔武山(譯名,Sid Trevethan)說:「中國現在認定潛艇是它的第一線戰艦、他們擊敗航空母艦的最佳利器。中國的看法是正確的。」 華府中共軍事問題專家費雪說:「人民解放軍對潛艇的龐大投資令人驚異。」 時報指出,中共也在建造兩艘核子動力潛艇─一艘咸信,是根據俄羅斯維克多三型潛艇設計並且配備洲際彈道飛彈的○九三型潛艇,一艘是五角大廈相信,艇身已建造完成並將在明年部署服役的○九四型潛艇。 崔武山說,中共目前已部署五十七艘潛艇,其中包括一艘夏級核子彈道飛彈潛艇、五艘漢級、四艘基洛級、七艘宋級、十八艘明級與二十二艘俄羅斯設計的羅密歐級潛艇。北京也已再向俄羅斯訂購八艘基洛級潛艇。 時報表示,美國正在設法出售八艘柴油電氣潛艇給台灣,後者目前只有兩艘第二次世界大戰時代的潛艇與兩艘荷蘭一九八○年代建造的潛艇。 費雪指出,儘管目前的台海均勢對北京有利,布希政府出售它二○○一年四月同意提供台灣的潛艇行動緩慢。他說:「美國迄今無法安排為台灣生產八艘新潛艇簡直是駭人聽聞。」美國國防官員一再表示,出售台灣潛艇的交易遲遲無法進行是台灣政府的預算問題造成的結果。 |
fer-de-lance 於 2004/07/16 23:35 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
>http://www.wforum.com/specials/upload/newsubtower.jpg Well, this shot shows a sail with planes + fairings at the sail but what hull is it connected to? Everyone has their own opinions ... http://www.stormpages.com/jetfight/han_xia_kilo_song.htm However, it should be noted that the Russkiys used bow planes on most of the subs for a VERY important reason - double hulls. Double-hulls mean that you have more reserve buoyancy - great asset if you are not that confident of your equipment but that imposes problems when you need to dive the boat ... in a hurry. It must be remembered that modern subs do not dive by simply flooding its ballist tanks. They move forward at speed and use control surfaces like the planes to push the bow down into the water. Single hull boats flood faster and get under to have the sail under water quickly enough so that planes mounted on the sail would not be a problem. Not so for a double-hulled boat. That is why they have bow mounted planes that are close to if not already underwater when the boat is on the surface. In that position, they can start helping to push the bow of a slow flooding double-hulled boat underwater much earlier than if the planes were on the sail. Were there exceptions to bow planes only designs in Soviet subs? Sure, Project 667, the Yankee and Delta class. However, they are SSBNs expected to stay underwater most of the time any way. The ChiCOMs 039 SONG class is based on a Western single-hull design, thought to be the Agosta. That may be why it has sail mounted planes. Some believe that sail mounted planes have some advantages in underwater maneuvrability and prefer to use them. |
Leon 於 2004/07/16 23:36 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
↑ 如果華盛頓時報今天報導確實是根據美國國防與情報官員的說法,那就很有可能是真的有此新潛艦! 而且也未必是PS的圖,因為萬惡中國的其他軍事論壇如虛幻/子陵等又後續出現了幾張不同角度的該潛艦照片! 不能像尖端科技論壇或mdc某些網友用同一泊位的照片似曾相似,就推定該圖是用訪港039A的帆罩加KILO艦體修改PS的! 因為那裡就在武漢的船廠邊,以前被拍過在那裡建過039A潛艦,不代表後來同個位置就不能再建其他更新型潛艦,關鍵是拍照時間,只要是前後期.而非撞期,沒啥不可能! 細看,那艘新潛艦的帆罩和039A的帆罩差異之處不少,前方的舷窗排數不同,該新潛艦的帆罩後緣和039A的帆罩後緣也不同! 再談談有人說是用KILO艦體PS修改的,但KILO艦體每邊有15排的.每排為6孔相連的進/排水孔(也就是KILO艦體每側共有90個進/排水孔);而該艘新潛艦的照片雖然不是很清晰,但還是可看出連排水孔分布位置都和KILO不同! 另外該新潛艦艦體的背脊突出高度與弧度也和KILO艦體的背脊有別(KILO艦體的背脊突出沒那麼高.弧度也有別);此新潛艦照片顯示其尾舵是十字尾,和基洛級的T字尾不同! 這些差異處,細看就會發現! 有人說艦艏魚雷管偏離中心軸線,但該新潛艦艦體看來頗寬,有無可能是上三管/下五管共8個魚雷發射裝置呢?這樣就能解釋魚雷管角度問題! 因為如果是用KILO艦體PS修改的,KILO的艦艏本來就有6個魚雷發射管,PS的人何必再去截取另一艘不同角度的KILO艦艏魚雷發射管來貼! 豈不多此一舉!! 最詭異的是該新潛艦下水的相關文章其實6月23就已發表,當時作者貼了另一幅照片,據說立即被刪掉,而過了三個星期後,才有人又貼圖! 是否有一種可能--就是真有該新潛艦,只是真圖目前萬惡中國官方網管還不准貼,現在出現網上的圖都是經過處理的呢? |
大& 於 2004/07/16 23:56 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
lol,now at lease 3 pictures of the same vessel have been released in china websites, all shot from different angles. Its funny if anyone still insist it is a PS picture:) I think the new class submarine is a complete new design with certain technologies brought by Kilo introduced. Its more like a Kilo than a Song. |
fer-de-lance 於 2004/07/17 00:33 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
See the following for photos ... http://www.cjdby.com/dispbbs.asp?boardID=5&ID;=99338&page;=1 The hull lines looks like a Kilo, especially the hump on the center-line. Question is whether this is a double or a single hull design. It looks like its beam is wide enough to be double-hulled ... but photos can be deceiving ... right? Well, if you figure on not needing to be on the surface a lot of the time - and you would like the maneuvrability of the sail mounted planes ... After all, the Yankee and Delta class SSBNs had them ... As I mentioned earlier, the 039 Song hull was probably based on the Agosta. So this |
SK2 於 2004/07/17 00:35 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
> Its funny if anyone still insist it is a PS picture well...thats just my prediction ^^ >前方的舷窗排數不同 All these can be done by the great PS...such as this picture: >有無可能是上三管/下五管共8個魚雷發射裝置呢 If this picture doesnt exist I may believe it......however this picture breaks all possibility: http://pic.tiexue.net/origin/2004_7/2004_7_13_7615.jpg compare with this: http://bbs.china.com/images/2004-07-16/10899504141089942518039X.jpg >KILO的艦艏本來就有6個魚雷發射管,PS的人何必再去截取另一艘不同角度的KILO艦艏魚雷發射管來貼 To make it LOOK different At this moment I still cant see clear picture, and those three photos still have some suspicious, therefore I still cant find evidence to proof it exist |
Pinus 於 2004/07/17 00:39 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
位於阿拉斯加的中共軍事問題專家崔武山(譯名,Sid Trevethan)說:「中國現在 認定潛艇是它的第一線戰艦、他們擊敗航空母艦的最佳利器。中國的看法是正確的。」 華府中共軍事問題專家費雪說:「人民解放軍對潛艇的龐大投資令人驚異。」 崔武山和費雪都沒有證實有新的潛艦﹐所以看來此事仍在懸疑中。 to fer-de-lance: While on the topic of blue-green lasers--Its true that lasers are too directional |
SK2 於 2004/07/17 12:57 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
seems that we got the truth now...no new SSK http://bbs.china.com/military/html/board_57_post/598051/2421851.html http://bbs.china.com/images/2004-07-17/1090037417108348658658384352330.jpg |
Luke-Skywalker 於 2004/07/17 13:18 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
這麼說............. 之前的圖片是造假的嘍! 還是039A嘛! |
romeoxz 於 2004/07/17 13:44 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
我覺得不是PS的,自從181以後的新艦都曾被認為是PS的,結果證實都是真的 而且美國通常是用衛星先發現然後才用圖片來證實的,至於那些所謂中國通歷來都是後知後覺的 |
SK2 於 2004/07/17 14:02 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
...除非再有網友拍到新照片, 否則之前三幅照片的可信性小於50% 網友們PS得太多了 |
tc2 於 2004/07/17 14:54 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
SK2 老兄在NO:208_97 拿來比較的照片,你知道原始拍照時間是什麼時候嗎? 還真是久遠! 有興趣的可自己用ACD SEE或其他可查照片時間的軟體查一下(如果他沒修改原照時間的話)! 原照幾個月前就在共匪各論壇廣為流傳http://61.132.72.44/dswc/upload/images/47714312860.jpg 根本不是中華網那位我爱歼-7所宣稱的,所謂是他近期跑去武漢船廠查證拍的! 如果美國軍方和北約真的已把該新潛艦命名為[元級],那中間必定經過一個查證過程,除了潛伏匪區的情報人員查證,肯定還包括衛星照片影像的判讀查證,以美國衛星的解析度,如果只是原來的[039A宋級改],他們會為此新潛艦命名一個新級別嗎? 我是不太相信美國軍方和情報單位會被共匪網路上幾張真假不名的照片給騙了! 所以要論真實與否,一切有待後續觀察吧! |
sss 於 2004/07/17 15:55 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
其實元級潛艇最早由龍嘯東方曝光過模型 here is picture of the model: http://www.wforum.com/specials/articles/03/5670.html |
SK2 於 2004/07/17 16:17 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
>其實元級潛艇最早由龍嘯東方曝光過模型 噢...它又從093變身成元級了? >如果美國軍方和北約真的已把該新潛艦命名為[元級],那中間必定經過一個查證過程 問題是目前還未證實 >有興趣的可自己用ACD SEE或其他可查照片時間的軟體查一下(如果他沒修改原照時間的話) 原照時間是其中一個最容易修改的東東 所以, 仍有疑問 |
Luke-Skywalker 於 2004/07/17 23:15 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
台灣一堆媒體紛紛報導,這是其中之一......... http://news.chinatimes.com/Chinatimes/newslist/newslist-content/0,3546,110505+112004071700081,00.html
報導說,最近在大陸網站上有一幀從武漢造船廠拍攝的完整潛艦照片顯示,中共正在建造一艘新型攻擊潛艦,美國五角大廈官員已經將這艘新發現的潛艦命名為「元級」。五角大廈官員透露,這艘潛艦堪稱「技術驚奇」,而美國方面對於中共建造新型潛艦並不知情。五角大廈官員並且研判這種新型潛艦應該是柴油動力潛艦。 「華盛頓時報」的報導還引述軍武專家費雪的分析指出,外界絕對會對於中共投入龐大支出發展潛艦感到驚訝。報導並且指出,五角大廈正提升太平洋地區的海軍軍力,包括將派駐在關島的攻擊潛艦增加到最多六艘,並且可能在幾個月內派遣一個航母戰鬥群前往夏威夷。 |
Hydropod 於 2004/07/18 20:53 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
At least this time, unlike other times, ALL the people on ALL differnet major chinese BBS who have inside sources and who are the ones who post the most info months before they are official, have confirmed the existence of the new SSK, which you never had get for any PSed photos before. |
SK2 於 2004/07/18 21:23 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
but the problem is, unless there are more photos, those three photos can prove nothing, as they are too suspicious everything has its first time, isnt it? :p |
greg 於 2004/07/18 21:36 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
新照片很快會有的....I am very sure |
Hydropod 於 2004/07/18 21:42 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
I am sure that if it is real, new pics will be upbefore the end of the month. Some had already made recon trip to Wuhan SY and said it is true... still, need photos... |
SK2 於 2004/07/18 22:58 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
photos are needed to further proof it lets see after new photos are available hope that I wont see photos as worst as the latest two |
VOR 於 2004/07/19 06:11 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
Bill Gertz 為提倡中國威脅論的媒體記者之一。 跟某些媒體一樣,他有時會有特殊的內線消息, 但他本人的軍武知識不足,且有報導錯誤被網友抓包的記錄。 以下是華盛頓時報(右派報紙)原文﹕ Chinese produce new type of sub Chinas naval buildup has produced a new type of attack submarine that U.S. intelligence did not know was under construction, according to U.S. defense and intelligence officials. |
VOR 於 2004/07/19 06:14 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
還有,華盛頓時報非美國大報社, 華盛頓郵報才是。 |
SSK 於 2004/07/20 09:45 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
another picture of the PLAN new ssk released yesterday. |
John 於 2004/07/20 13:29 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
↑↑↑↑ Do you mean this one? http://bbs.china.com/images/2004-07-19/10902509821090240332DSC00451.jpg |
Hydropod 於 2004/07/20 16:24 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
Now so there is 4 photos of this Yuan class. There is a starboard shot, a full frontal shot, and 2 port/ front shots. All shots are of differnt clarity and from different angles. |
Hydropod 於 2004/07/20 18:34 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
Well, seems like the floodgate had opened. This is about the most clear pic of the sub yet: courtesy of tigershark of CDF http://img46.photobucket.com/albums/v140/Tigershark99/w_1090309488.jpg |
fer-de-lance 於 2004/07/21 03:07 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
My 2 cents worth ... US sources strongly suggest that the USN Office of Naval Intelligence believe there is a new sub being built: - probably an SSK in Wuhan - probably given a reporting name of Yuan per practice of calling ChiCOM boats by Chinese dynasties (however, these reporting names, while widely used - are officially classified - hence - the most anyone can say is ... probably ...) Photographic evidence There was one clear photo - not retouched - of a submarine sail with planes with a new (previously unseen) faired mounting (where the planes meet the sail). One of the places where this photo was first posted was: http://www.stormpages.com/jetfight/han_xia_kilo_song.htm Speculation by the poster was that the sail belonged to a nuclear attack boat (photo captioned as -09X). This was posted quite some time before the current barrage of photos. So, there appears to be good evidence of a new design for sail-mounted planes, whether it is related to the new SSK (allegedly designated as the Yuan by the US ONI) we do not know. Within the barrage of photos posted on the various webpages, there are some shots with clear evidence of retouching. In a way, the best way to confuse people is to make fake photos of something that actually exists!! A good analyst need to recognize that proving that some photos alleging to be the Yuan class SSK are fake do not mean that the Yuan class does not exist. They are two separate issues. Indications are that there is a new sub. It may look like Kilo with sail-mounted planes. Personally, I think it may be a single-hulled design - could be a development of the -039A. The 039 itself is based on the Agosta. The follow-on to the Agosta is the Scorpene and its enlarged version the S80 (which can be considered a Song/Agosta with a wider ~7.1m beam and a Albacore-type bow). Some photos of the new sub which may be genuine, showed a hump or spine in the hull similar to that in the 636 Kilo. This is also seen in the Amur-1650, the follow-on to the Kilo. The thing about the Amur-1650 is that ... it has a single-hull and sail-mounted planes. Very interesting! |
Pinus 於 2004/07/21 04:13 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
↑That sail looks different than the one mounted on the allegedly Yuan class photo ( captioned as 04X). |
fer-de-lance 於 2004/07/21 23:01 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
But the fairings on the planes are similar - also similar to the ones on the 092 boomer. Hey, Sierra-Kilo-deuce et al - looks like we now qualify as TERRACE BANDITS ... :) http://www.52dby.com//cgi-bin/topic.cgi?forum=3&topic;=1732&show;=0 Actually, wouldnt OUTLAW TERRACE sound more like a real program? Might be really appropriate as the name for an low frequency active adjunct to SURTASS for use in Taiwanese waters! |
SK2 於 2004/07/21 23:45 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
haha, thanks sir! |
Pinus 於 2004/07/22 00:16 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
>Hey, Sierra-Kilo-deuce et al - looks like we now qualify as TERRACE BANDITS ... :) Hahaha...To me, being a bandit is better than being a fool, as the old saying has it:Id rather hold up an umbrella for a bandit than be an advisor to a fool. >But the fairings on the planes are similar - also similar to the ones on the 092 boomer. Somehow I have the feeling that they would look different in proportion if I turn them into the same view angle. May be its just my illiusion. Frankly I think these photos prove nothing - they can be faked or PSed and released on purpose. Until we see some real reconnaissance photos (if ever), we are just treading muddy water here. Bill Gertz is too enthusiastic at times. On the other hand, I have hard time to believe that the Gong Fei would pass up chances getting someting out of the salivating Amur-1650 which the Russian are advertising hard (and hence may be willing to share something juicy). Perhaps somebody can summarize the REAL differences between Amur and Kilo? |
fer-de-lance 於 2004/07/22 05:22 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
Amur-1650: single-hulled, sail-mounted planes 636 (Kilo): doubled-hulled, hull-mounted planes anechoic tile covered - needed low frequency active to regain long detection range ... Rubin claims a significant reduction in noise signature for the Amur-1650 over the Kilo. Probably means a smaller signature on narrow-band when snorting AND possibly lower broad-band noise when traveling at speed. When any modern SSK is just stationary or creeping along at 2kt on motors, there should be very little to choose between any of them. The passing of the Soviet sub threat (may God rest her soul ...) had led to de-emphaszing of ASW in many active units (unshipping of R-19 tails from many ships ... retirement of all fixed winged ASW from carriers ... ). However, some key programs - especially those focussed on countering SSKs in the littorals - have been kept going. Some are quite exotic, others very boringly effective (with mundane names like CUSP ...) Others are downright scary ... like doing CODAR and Julie with a field of 32 buoys .... (Just looking at all those overlapping elipses made me cross-eyed! But left you in no doubt where the target was ...) See, you don t have to sacrifice cetacean hearing to really scare the Aristichthys (that is carp not cr_p) out of any sub-driver ... whether they are Arch Concubines or not ... Contrary to what Bill Gertz says, these are the things you need to counter the SSK in the littorals - not SSKs of your own.
108 Legendary Water Margin Outlaws ... (LSP = Liang-shan-po, not Landing Ship Personnel) So, Pinus ... surnamed Lin? (Chinese version of the Sphinx - human body and head of Panthera pardus!) SK2 = Sung Kiang ... (one of ... timely judicial piddling ... fame) ... all fighting ... (Hehehehehehe) ... the SONG(!) dynasty We are in good company indeed! |
Pinus 於 2004/07/22 12:50 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
Hahaha...what the present day Songs dont know is that they are facing Kublai Khan. I can only see that they help whipping up the appetite of USN. When any modern SSK is just stationary or creeping along at 2kt on motors, there should be very little to choose between any of them. If they sit on the seabed, then its true that no much can be done except massive active pinging (and think of that, maybe thats just what Taiwan DOD would do). Supposedly the Amurs are better for the situation in taiwan Strait because of their slender bodies. Would the low frequency ping on the double-hulled babies produce clearer signatures than the single-hulled ones? |
SK2 於 2004/07/22 16:25 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
btw, is it that Amur is a revolution in the Russian SSK history? It should be the first Russian SSK to have a single hull only Amur 1650......nearly the same as its name, 1650 tons (surfaced) The Russians think of Amur maybe because of the poor reputation of Kilo in some littorial area, such as the Baltic(Polish are complaining......), isnt it? Although Amur could be impressive on paper, I still doubt whether it really is that impressive in reality. I would wonder if those Songs could get up USNs appetite or not |
Pinus 於 2004/07/23 10:39 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
↑↑ Russian SSN Akula class is single-hulled (but, of course, its nuclear-powered). Indian government shows interest in leasing some Akula although it has questions about the reliability of Russian technology on single-hull structure. I think USNs appetite is on the Kilos. I used the name Song just to stand for PLAN. |
SK2 於 2004/07/23 12:07 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
↑ but this said that the Akula has double hull...... the first sentence in the DESIGN paragraph: |
Pinus 於 2004/07/23 12:42 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
Yes, traditionally Akula are double-hulled. But I remember that I read somewhere (dont recall where) that Russian are building single-hulled subs with other Akula outfits, and thats how I think Akula (one type of this class) have single hulls. I may be wrong (or mixed up with the Amur). I will check. |
SK2 於 2004/07/23 13:08 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
or maybe its really Amur? |
Pinus 於 2004/07/23 13:53 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
Here is one of them: http://www.stratmag.com/issueFeb-15/page01.htm India is reported to have serious reservations about the Akula class submarine which Russia has offered. Traditionally, all Russian submarines are double-hulled but the Akula class is Russias first attempt at building single-hulled submarines. In that sense its a new technology and the Indian Navy would rather not take chances in acquiring it. Indias Russian origin Kilo class subs are all double-hulled. However, the German HDW subs are single-hulled. This also applies to other western submarine builders including the US and Sweden. but I seem to have read another report. Of course they can be misled, too. :p. |
fer-de-lance 於 2004/07/24 03:08 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
The stratmag.com article is wrong. The Akula (Проект 971, Щука-Б; Project 971; Shchuka-B) definitely has a double-hull. The Amur is the first modern Russian sub design to have a single-hull. The pod on the fin a housing for the towed array - first seen on the Victor III (Pr.671RTM if memory serves - and it seems such a LONG time ago!) The FAS write-up is one of the better ones available on the net ... unless you are willing to make the effort to decipher the stuff on the Russian websites. http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/row/rus/971.htm Oh, BTW, I don t think it makes much of a difference whether you have a double or a single hull when it comes to being pingged by sonar. The outer casing is rigid enough to reflect sonar signals. |
Pinus 於 2004/07/24 06:37 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
OK, glad to have that misinformation out of the way. For a while I thought Russian made a special version of Akula for export. FAS is pretty good but I found they dont always update their writeups. That stratmagazine is supposed to focus on the military situation in SE Asia and S Asia, a region not many here are paying attention to. I am just thinking that (in theory) in the very low frequency range one just might detect the resonance between the two hulls. This of course requires fairly high enegy of the ping to see anything at all. Its probably strong enough to cause the sonar guys to go crazy. |
fer-de-lance 於 2004/07/24 12:09 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
Resonance between the two hulls? Hmmm, below 400 Hz, the measured power radiated from ship-like structures exceed that calculated by an increasing amount with resonance and reverberant energy predominating (Donaldson JM, Applied Acoustics 1: 275-291, 1968). But, would say ... a <1 kHz LFA array banging away at 180 dB at say ... 2 CZ actually result in resonance between two concentric hulls (separated by fluid)? And, would it matter? Geez, have to ask the experts! Maybe these guys below would know :) http://www.war-sky.com/cgi-bin/topic.cgi?forum=3&topic;=20373&show;=50 Our discussion have generated sufficient interest to be re-posted at the site below ... One dude is lost for words to describe our conversations and could only come up with some Nanking cuss words - limited vocabulary - I guess! I guess we should keep these kids entertained ... We rich Whiskey-Whiskey uncles across the Strait gotta tell them about their own stuff they can t find anywhere else but here! ... Their boats are getting skewed blades to try and reduce the 5-30 Hz tonals. Supposedly, they are even trying active damping in addition to resonant mounts to attack the machinery noises ~30 -100 Hz and GenSet noises at ~60-120 Hz with harmonics at 180 Hz. But, betcha they still have trouble with certain issues with mechanical couplings ... vortices (pretty neck-laces !) Back during the Cold War, it was possible to look for and classify Russkiys by the prominent lines on the LOFARGRAM - Ah, 300 Hz ... 450 Hz, must be a Charlie class SSGN! But, there is plenty of fun stuff just now coming into service that would make things REAL interesting over the next few years. Right now the ChiCOMs are finally making up for years of neglect due to political turmoil. They may be in an unprecendented building program but they still have a LOOOONG way to go - the opposition is not standing still waiting for them to catch up! |
Pinus 於 2004/07/24 13:03 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
I guess we should keep these kids entertained ... We rich Whiskey-Whiskey uncles across the Strait gotta tell them about their own stuff they can t find anywhere else but here! This reminds me something one would read during the cold war: Comrad First Secretary, I want to report an accident of one of our ships in the Baltics. Back to the issue of the planes: There has been rumors that new US designs tend to be bow-mounted planes. Some had commented before that this is because of the noise problem doesnt bother the sonar guys anymore. You had said before, though, that the bow-mounted planes can cause problems in diving speed. I suppose this is probably not a great concern anymore? |
fer-de-lance 於 2004/07/26 14:16 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
Re: planes - flow noise was the reason for placement of planes in the sail in earlier US boats. There was also a heated debate about which position gave better handling, especially at higher speeds. But, as you might have guessed - it is a little more complicated than simple placement of the planes (sail or bow). What we can say is that, with the technology/designs of the 1950s, the USN found during experiments using USS Albacore that removing the bow planes reduced flow noise. Anything that sticks into the water flow (appendages such as ... planes) would shed vortices - turbulent flow that would interact with structures behind it such as limber holes or the propellers to amplify flow noise. Putting the planes up in the sail would reduce the interaction of any vortices they shed with structures behind them. Simple way to reduce flow noise. If you are really clever - (yes, there are folks that way inclined in the UK and the US) - you can design planes, hulls and shrouded propellers/pump jets that would minimize the vortices produced or the consequences of such vortices. That may be the reason behind moving back to bow mounted plabes in the newer boat designs. BTW, looks like they are picking up on the possible Amur-1650 connection - remember, you heard it on this station first - so stay tuned to 10-10 K-MTB!! http://www.war-sky.com/cgi-bin/topic.cgi?forum=3&topic;=20434&show;=25 |
John 於 2004/07/26 19:21 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
>>BTW, looks like they are picking up on the possible Amur-1650 connection At least The KANWA thinks in this way. they even name the newly designed SSK Chinese Amuror “中華阿穆爾”in Chinese: Can it really be some kind of ROCN水面艦隊未來最深沉的夢魘???∼Amur(By Toga)?? http://www.kanwa.com/fwpl/ 2004-07-26 “中華阿穆爾”的源頭 中國海軍潛水艦作戰兵力的運用 039A潛水艦子系統確認 |
Pinus 於 2004/07/27 01:05 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
>>BTW, looks like they are picking up on the possible Amur-1650 connection Ha, we figured that, didnt we.
搞笑一下(^^) 武漢新潛的艦帆如果是 |
wp 於 2004/07/27 08:04 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
Hi guys, Ive been reading this topic for a while and quite interested in what you guys are talking about. Thanks for all the infos provided. But, Do you guys have any conclusion about whether the so called YUAN class submarine photoes are real or PSed? Thanks |
Pinus 於 2004/07/27 09:44 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
Since (as far as we know) none of us is a standing Central committee member of CCPs Politburo, I am afraid that we have to disappoint you that we dont know.(^^) It is not impossible that PLAN creates smokes and misinformation about new boats so as to confuse others. These others may include Bill Gertz as well. But as a pure guess, the PLAN is trying something that is a combination of their indigenous design with some Amur flavor. Perhaps the all-mighty fer-de-lance (^++++^) can shed more lights on this. |
fer-de-lance 於 2004/07/27 11:23 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
There is only one L in almighty ... and it ain t me ... I just pray to Him :) >搞笑一下(^^) Good one about the 烏龍 ... I mean 黑龍 ... 江. Actually, if - in all likelihood - this design is not an exact copy of the Amur-1650 but rather a modification or development based on it, naming her after a tributary of the Amur River would be appropriate ... would it not? One of the most famous Amur tributary in Sino-Russian relationship is, of course the Уссури
THE most famous island on said river has to be the ... Даманский better known in Chinese as ... (hold on to your Dr. Zhivago fur hats ...)
婆滷酥科婆累! (Perhaps the song 「Amur Partisans」 would have been more appropriate but I can t remember the words ..) Stay tuned to Ten-Ten K-MTB for more classic revolutionary songs with butchered 羅宋 lyrics! |
Pinus 於 2004/07/27 13:04 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
>There is only one L in almighty ... and it ain t me ... I just pray to Him :) Yes, I do know the almighty is the one referring to the old fella living upstairs and thats why I typed allmighty. Then MS Word made autocorrections four times and changed it back to almighty (which wasnt my intention ^+++^, dont want to be blasphemous), so my only choice was to type all-mighty.(^^) Hey, I just found that if i type directly in the reply box in this forum (instead of cut and paste from Word), no autocorrection is made. I am looking into the AIP stuff and I think before long the PLAN would fit their subs with it. Wanna guess what kind of AIP they have in mind (in the next 10 years)? |
SK2 於 2004/07/27 13:19 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
btw, I have just found that......the Yuan pics is also similar to the French 天蠍 and 綠寶石 class also... |
Pinus 於 2004/07/28 02:10 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
>Perhaps the song 「Amur Partisans」 would have been more appropriate but I can t remember the words .. Here is part of it:Amur partisans But it doesnt seem to have anything to do with subs. I found this from web which is useful for our discussions on the AIP systems: 世界柴電動力潛艦新發展 譯 李仲誼 AIP 系統不僅提升了 SSK 之生存率,並且大幅增加了戰術彈性(例如增加耐久潛航); |
Pinus 於 2004/07/28 02:13 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
The link for the above is: http://www.mnd.gov.tw/division/~defense/mil/mnd/mhtb/%E6%B5%B7%E8%BB%8D%E8%BB%8D%E5%AE%98%E5%AD%A3%E5%88%8A/%E6%B5%B7%E8%BB%8D%E5%AE%98%E6%A0%A1%E5%AD%A3%E5%88%8A21%E5%8D%B73%E6%9C%9F/%E4%B8%96%E7%95%8C%E6%9F%B4%E9%9B%BB%E5%8B%95%E5%8A%9B%E6%BD%9B%E8%89%A6%E6%96%B0%E7%99%BC%E5%B1%95.htm |
fer-de-lance 於 2004/07/28 05:58 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
天蠍 = Scorpène As I had mentioned above, the Spanish S80 is based on this design which is, in turn, based on the Agosta - thought to be the basis for the -039. I was covering all possibilities when I mentioned this one. However, the hump (casing) on the hull looks distinctly Russian ... 綠寶石 = Emeraude, one of the French Rubis / AMETHYSTE class nuclear boats (AME.T.HY.S.T.E stands for: AMElioration Tactique, HydrodYnamique, Silence, Transmission, Ecoute.) It is a little confusing that one of the class is called ... The Turquoise = 綠松石was a conventional/AIP powered derivative of the Rubis / AMETHYSTE that was never built. Given the close collaboration with the Russians - particularly Rubin - the most likely AIP system for the PLAN would be the fuel cell based Kristall 27E. Hehehheheh, ... Амурский партизан... Amurskiy Partizan ... Thanks Pinus - goes to prove you can find almost ANYTHING on the web!! Come to think of it, the beginning of the melody shares some similarities with the Red River Valley (what do you expect - White Russian Valley?) But it is much more slavic sounding :) |
John 於 2004/07/28 23:39 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
Very Fast! the stormpages.com has updated their content about the new SSK: http://www.stormpages.com/jetfight/han_xia_kilo_song.htm As the next generation of Chinese SSG, the first boat of this class (Type 039x?) was recently launched in Spring 2004 at Wuhan Shipyard. Its design appears to have drawn some features from both 039A and Kilo. The submarine has a 039A style sail with diving planes. However a raised hump on top of the teardrop shaped hull clearly suggests a Kilo influence. There has been rumors that an AIP system might be onboard but this has not been confirmed. As a tradition aimed for the greater safety, a double-hull design is thought to have been retained. Integrated with advanced noise reduction techniques including anechoic tiles, passive/active noise reduction, asymmetrical seven-blade skewed propeller, 04x is expected to be as quiet as other modern diesel/electric powered submarines therefore much difficult to be tracked. Like 039A, 039x is also capable of launching YJ-8 series AShMs, besides 533mm wire-guided torpedos from 6 forward tubes at the stern. The emergence of 039x in such a short period of time after the starting of series production of Song class SSG came to a surprise to the US intelligence community and a Yuan designation was quickly assigned by the Pentagon. Together with 093, Song and Kilo class submaines, Yuan class will pose a serious threat to US and Taiwanese naval forces. |
John 於 2004/08/04 21:12 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
http://www.kanwa.com/mrdt/ 最新一期詹氏防衛周刊(JDW)以“新潛水艦圖片顯示中國的神秘”為題對中國的最新常規動力潛水艦進行了分析。這篇由亞洲特派員平可夫和海軍編輯Richard Scott撰寫的分析稿認為在武漢露面的中國新型潛水艦確實是新設計。詹氏防衛周刊獲悉中國研究俄羅斯Rubin設計局設計的最新一代“阿穆爾”級潛水艦已經多年。
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Pinus 於 2004/08/05 00:12 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
John, Thank you for minding the store!(^^) 所以看來武漢新潛是越來越有可能是俄中混血兒了。準此消息﹐可以讓我們把中國海 我猜他們也會試著裝上AIP﹐以俄式或法式設計為基礎﹐但中國自己生產的。如果有 AIP之目的在使電池經常充滿﹐能使潛艦利用電池航行而達到靜音效果﹐而SSK之優 再者﹐電池航行固然靜音﹐AIP自己到底靜不靜音﹐似乎沒有多少人在討論。CCD﹐ |
SK2 於 2004/08/05 00:16 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
>燃料電池可能最安靜﹐但是潛艦一次可攜帶多少燃料﹖ http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/type_212/index.html type 212 The propulsion system combines a conventional system consisting of a diesel generator with a lead acid battery, and an air-independent propulsion (AIP) system, used for silent slow cruising, with a fuel cell equipped with oxygen and hydrogen storage. The system consists of nine PEM (polymer electrolyte membrane) fuel cells, providing between 30 and 50kW each.
Performance of the AIP system has been increased with two Siemens PEM fuel cells which produce 120kW per module and will give the submarine an underwater endurance of two weeks. A hull shape which has been further optimised for hydrodynamic and stealth characteristics and a low noise propeller combine to decrease the submarines acoustic signature. |
Pinus 於 2004/08/05 11:54 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
SK2 (= 及時雨宋江-- fer de lance奉送的封號^^)﹕ 這裡有幀西門子燃料電池裝置在潛艦上的照片﹐可見其尺度不小。估計一下所須電池 的數量﹐加上燃料空間﹐應可約略猜測潛艦加長的多少。http://w4.siemens.de/de2/html/ press/newsdesk_archive/2003/fo03412.html |
toga 於 2004/08/05 12:23 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
http://mbox.hchs.hc.edu.tw/%7Emilitary/navy/euronavy/scorpene.htm 法國研發的AIP系統叫做MESMA,是一種閉式循環雙迴路蒸汽發電機,基本運作原理與蒸汽渦輪類似,都是產生蒸汽進而驅動渦輪發電機來產生動力,不同的是蒸汽產生的方式並非以鍋爐或核子反應器加熱,而是在主迴路的燃燒室中燃燒酒精與氧氣,產生的700度高溫高壓氣體送至熱交換器而將次迴路中的的水加熱為攝氏500度的水蒸汽來帶動發電機,而使用過的主迴路蒸汽在經過冷凝器後重新返回燃燒室,進行下一次的循環。裝備MESMA之類的AIP系統使傳統動力潛艦的水下持續航行能力大增,例如天蠍座AM-2000的水下持續航行距離便是CM-2000的三至五倍(不過MESMA能提供的航速僅4至5節)。 根據法國佬的說法,和德國佬的燃料電池系統相較,MESMA系統最大的優勢在於燃料再補充時的取得方便∼加氫站並非隨處可見,特別是戰時,而酒精與氧氣則可說是各大醫院均有售........... |
Luke-Skywalker 於 2004/08/05 13:14 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
http://yam.udn.com/yamnews/daily/2168166.shtml 分析》戰力 不是最強 動機 不容小覷 本報記者盧德允 詹氏防衛周刊報導中共在武漢造船廠研發最新柴電動力潛艦,其實以中共的潛艦工藝水準,仍難企及歐洲德、法、荷等老牌柴電潛艦船廠的水平,這型新潛艦還不足以是左右台海戰場的強力戰具。 武漢船廠不斷累積經驗,從仿製到自製明級潛艦(現仍為中共柴電動力潛艦中數量最多的一型),再進而自力發展宋級,宋級是第一種外型符合國際潮流的淚滴型設計潛艦,備受西方和東亞國家注目。宋級目前已產製多艘開始服役,月前解放軍海軍訪問香港時,宋級也列隊其中,是專家密切注意的焦點。 不過,中共採購俄羅斯K(西方國家稱基洛)級潛艦四艘後的經驗顯示,K級有其缺點,並非軍火市場中宣傳地那般英勇神武,其狀況類似中共引進蘇廿七戰機後,面臨的人員素質落差問題。 中共於宋級柴電潛艦才剛可以派上用場之際,又推出另一型也是淚滴型艦身的新潛艦,可以推估中共對宋級性能並不滿意,也不願過度依賴外購的俄製K級。觀察網路上曝光的新潛艦圖片,外形與歐式潛艦幾無二致,推究其性能,除了無法掌握它有無大幅延長潛航時間的AIP推進系統外,應沒有令人意外之處。 值得注意的是,中共一邊發展核動力潛艦,更持續投注大量資源於傳統動力潛艦,不斷研製新產品,添入新科技。其努力的動機,將是以夠水準且大量的潛艦,主導東亞海疆的制海能力,並以價廉質佳的潛艦,進軍國際市場,深化中共對第三世界的影響力。這不只針對台灣向美採購八艘新潛艦,威脅台灣對外通商和反封鎖企圖,嚇阻第三勢力介入可能的台海衝突,更對日韓等國發出令人膽寒訊號,也將嚴重排擠美國在全球的利益。 |
Pinus 於 2004/08/06 02:17 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
↑>不過,中共採購俄羅斯K(西方國家稱基洛)級潛艦四艘後的經驗顯示,K級有其 缺點, >並非軍火市場中宣傳地那般英勇神武 不知這是有根據之言﹐還是想當然爾﹖每種武器當然都有缺點﹐而軍火市場中宣傳 >戰力不是最強 這點說實在無關緊要。中國目前還不想(也不能)跟老美在深海較量。武器只要合 台灣必須憂慮這個消息﹐其實目前台灣最需要的﹐除了8艘潛艦一定必要之外﹐是 |
John 於 2004/08/07 11:50 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
其實以中共的潛艦工藝水準,仍難企及歐洲德、法、荷等老牌柴電潛艦船廠的水平,這型新潛艦還不足以是左右台海戰場的強力戰具.. >>其實現代軍工,軍民兩用,模塊化通行。很難再強調“自身”多強。有點似DIY台PC,裡面的原件夠“COOL”。裝出來的東東不一樣強悍?!不會輸過大廠品牌機! 總結下:元級潛艇極可能有的“好東東”: 1 船體設計較為接近俄式KILO水艇,噪音水平不會差過636 可見此新型SSK,及多家大成,不過看PLA過去整合J10,J11,054艦能力,應該不會太差.
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dasha 於 2004/08/07 13:27 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
>>另外﹐雖然潛艦國造是行不通(至少來不及)﹐但以中科院的研究水準﹐進行反潛方面的研究應當可以得心應手。 ......如果沒有精蝕案精盡案砍人砍到翻的話......現在台灣附近的水文資料啊...... |
Mind1985 於 2004/08/07 13:57 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
精實案沒有錯, 錯的是那個說三軍要按等比例裁撤的匪諜! |
Pinus 於 2004/08/08 12:00 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
說匪諜可能言重了一點吧﹖比較有可能是軍種本位主義﹐這是世界各國皆有的啦﹗過 去的一些計劃本身理念並非一無是處﹐但是最大的問題其實在最高政策-是防衛臺 澎金馬﹖還是反攻大陸﹖以現在的局勢看﹐當然大家都知道後者是錯誤﹐然而在當 時的強人政治下﹐那是個『公設』﹐所以下面訂計劃的人也只好硬頭皮照辦了。往 事已矣﹐而今亡羊補牢﹐猶未太晚﹐但盼立法院對潛艦軍購案以國家安全為重﹐拋 棄政黨為反對而反對的惡鬥。畢竟如果台灣陸沉﹐打濕的絕對不會只是執政黨而已。
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ASD 於 2004/08/10 16:18 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
那個料敵從嚴的記者說中國新潛艇戰力不強. 真是有夠笨灌台灣迷湯了,戰力不強所為何來. 潛艇本身性能固然重要,但它攜帶的導彈與魚水雷性能也很重要. 不強造它作啥?只要戰略戰術正確,美日潛艇也會被擊沉的. 幾年前,某中國潛艇浮出日本海面,震驚了日軍, |
ASD 於 2004/08/17 16:35 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
怎麼會沒有人回應? |
Pinus 於 2004/08/21 13:11 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
>幾年前,某中國潛艇浮出日本海面,震驚了日軍, >美國佈下的水下聽音器居然沒有作用. 這個好像是中國網民自吹的。這種無法證實的傳言咱們是用不著替他們宣傳。 有人對中國潛艇通信系統熟悉嗎﹖如果有的話﹐請不吝打字Po上來討論討論﹐無任 眾所週知﹐潛艦是【沉默部隊】﹐因之基本上只是收信。問題是它又不太敢浮上來 ELF更離譜﹐要好幾千公里的天線﹐而且最好是像加拿大盾地的那種地質。請問網上 |
CosmoHorizon 於 2004/08/22 12:24 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
>>>>這個好像是中國網民自吹的。這種無法證實的傳言咱們是用不著替他們宣傳。 Pinus前輩,這不是有新聞報導還有照片嗎? |
Pinus 於 2004/08/22 12:34 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
↑↑事實只有 >幾年前,某中國潛艇浮出日本海面 而 有的消息就說是被日本海自“逼”上來的﹐我們也不知那個消息才是真的。 |
Pinus 於 2004/08/25 02:29 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
中國潛艦部隊近況二三 去年四月發生的中國明級潛艦361在黃海意外事件﹐導致艦上乘員70人全數死亡(正 目前比較流行的兩種說法﹕一是由於海水滲入電池﹐產生毒氣﹐致使乘員全部中毒 另一個問題則是﹐難道船上的抽氣機也和玉成抽水站的抽水機一樣故障﹖該不會是 事後懲處了兩名將領及其他8名軍官﹐罪名是指揮及控制不當。有人據此推測﹐出事 1995年那艘出事的明級潛艇在上海的照片指出﹐它裝設有側面陣列聲納﹐是法國TR-2225的 |
Supp 於 2004/09/16 22:37 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
↑http://www2.beareyes.com.cn/jpic/2/2004/09/20040916_190143_2.jpg 左下方為什麼有鴿籠,還有編號。難道老共建造一艘潛艦出海放鴿賭賽嗎? |
Leon 於 2004/09/17 10:56 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
↑除了鴿子籠之外;前方還有氣球.再看艦首覆蓋著他們國旗.....不就是一個很明顯的,在慶祝新潛艦下水之類的儀式嗎?!這種場合釋放和平鴿和氣球,不難理解吧?! 只是照片不像宋改(039G),是元級或093核動力攻擊潛艦? 還是何方妖孽? |
JACK987 於 2004/09/17 11:24 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
目前比較流行的兩種說法﹕一是由於海水滲入電池﹐產生毒氣﹐致使乘員全部中毒 另一個問題則是﹐難道船上的抽氣機也和玉成抽水站的抽水機一樣故障﹖該不會是 我不知道是不是我理解上犯了錯誤.如有請大家指教 |
Pinus 於 2004/09/17 11:48 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
↑我上面提的是抽氣機﹐不是抽水機﹐因為有一說是因為毒氣未排出而導致艦上人員死 亡。我說玉成抽水站的抽水機只是打諢啦。他們潛艦上當然有抽水機﹐不過似乎沒 人提到這事件和抽水機有關。 |
tc2 於 2004/09/18 15:38 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
關於中國網民日前在此吹噓宣揚~所謂萬惡中國的明級改潛艦在日本海域潛伏多時後生上國旗上浮示威一事, 花了幾分鐘用Google查了一下,該事件起源於2003年11月12日中午,日本海上自衛隊官方網站發布了一條來源於自衛隊“海上幕僚監部”的消息。這個負責海上巡邏與偵察的日本軍事部門聲稱,當天上午8點左右,部署在日本鹿屋航空基地的海上自衛隊第一航空隊的兩架“P-3C”反潛巡邏機在執行巡邏任務途中遇到了一艘原先潛航時都未被發覺,卻疑似刻意浮出水面示威的--帆罩頂升上中國國旗之中國海軍“明”級傳統動力潛艇。據日本說,日方巡邏機是在日本南部九州島與種子島之間的大隅海峽中發現該中國潛艇的,更具體的方位是距九州島南端的佐多岬以東約40公里的海域。 日本官方稱,當時中國潛艇浮在海面上,帆罩塔台上懸掛著五星紅旗,正在沿大隅海峽向西行駛。 這則新聞在自衛隊網站上一經發布,立刻引起了日本媒體的震動 。12日下午至晚間,日本《朝日新聞》、《讀賣新聞》等各大報都在網路版上進行了轉載,並在次日早晨的報紙上大幅刊登了相關報導。《朝日新聞》還刊登了由日本海上自衛隊提供的兩張中國潛艇的照片,照片的文字說明分別是:“自衛隊確認中國潛艇在近海海域懸掛國旗,浮出海面航行”、“中國海軍潛水艇,監視之下的航行”。從照片上可以看到:一艘潛艇行駛在湛藍的海上,整個帆罩塔台及大約三分之一的潛艇艇身露出水面,行駛的潛艇在艇身前方的水面劈出白色的浪花,塔台上 的五星紅旗很醒目。另外,照片還顯示,潛艇艇身上有一些紅色的漂浮物,據日本媒體分析,該艘潛水艇是做過靜音改良的“明”級改良型潛水艇,潛艇艇身上的紅色物質很可能是潛艇長期在該海域潛航從海裡帶上來的海藻或海帶。《朝日新聞》的報導還列出了中國海軍“明”級潛水艇的相關背景資料:柴油動力、艇長76米、寬7.6米、高5.1米、水下排水量2113公噸、水上排水量1584公噸、有8門魚雷發射管、可攜帶16枚魚雷等等。 一些日本媒體還煞有其事的考據並訪問日本相關專家,指出中國潛艇刻意上浮後顯示其艇身上的該紅色物質應該是屬於大隅海峽附近特有的紅藻。紅藻綱(Rhodophyceae)--真紅藻亞綱--(Florideophycidae)--杉海苔目(Gigartinales)--Halymeniaceae科--海膜屬(Halymenia)的Halymenia dilatata 普遍生長於水深30-50m下。
(東京訊)據《朝日新聞》援引日本海上自衛隊官方網站之消息稱,中國潛艇駛近日本南端,距離領海邊界只有18公里。 美國克萊蒙研究所亞洲研究中心主任湯本在2003年11月22日發表一篇分析該事件的文章,如下: 軍演?反偵察?還是戰略警告?--評中國潛艇在日本公海公開上浮的戰略意義 湯本 最近,媒體和各國軍事研究界,紛紛對中國大陸海軍潛艇在日本公海潛航再公開上浮進行探討,是普通軍演?是反偵察?還是戰略警告? 此次中國大陸潛艇離日本海岸線最近時只有18海里。如果不公開上浮,日本海軍反潛機並無發現,這是日本官方軍方甚為震動的原因。而中國大陸外交部發言人認為﹕“這是正常的演習活動”。然而,中國大陸潛艇扮演重要軍事、政治角色已不是第一次,1996年春台灣總統選舉,中國大陸核潛艇曾與美國航空母艦群在東海對峙,當中國大陸核潛艇在美艦群的監測系統中消失蹤影之後,為了避免進一步衝突,傳聞美國航空母艦群退後了一百海里。 目前由於公投制憲聲浪增高,台灣選情的不確定性,美中台關係的複雜性,由於美國駐台協會主席解讀“不支持台獨”並不等於“不反對台獨”,給美中關係在反恐戰爭之後“良好形勢”帶來複雜性,果然,日前,汪道涵公開講話擔憂台海和平局勢,王在希也表示“台獨就是戰爭”的強硬態度。而中日關係正處於詭譎變動狀態,中國大陸海軍潛艇在日本海上浮,顯示其戰略目的。而中國大陸民意也出現急迫性,對中國大陸高層對台獨勢力膨脹上的“軟弱”態度不滿,也由來以久。中國大陸潛艇在這樣的時候,在日本海上浮,正是挾持中國大陸這樣反台獨的民意、反日的民意,採取軍事演習的行為,表露其綜合性的戰略目的。 根據加拿大軍事評論家平可夫的看法,中國大陸海軍明級柴油動力常規潛艇經過改裝以及技術更新,其隱蔽性能大大增長,如果不上浮,日本反潛機就無法發現。筆者認為,此事使日本官方軍方震撼的原因,是日本海防有大漏洞,是和平時期的軍防失敗,也直接影響日軍精神心理和戰略思考。而中國大陸潛艇部隊歷來是海軍的一張王牌,此次潛行也是對今夏潛艇事故的大陸海軍形象受損的一個彌補。 另一種可能性是,中國潛艇在日本公海公開上浮是警告日本不要插手海峽兩岸衝突,顯示其反制及防範“美日武力干涉台灣事務”的軍事行動能力。中國潛艇在日本公海公開上浮顯示戰略意圖,為反制日本介入未來可能的台海戰爭,可能出現中國大陸一貫的軍事戰略﹕“你打你的,我打我的”。如果日本根據“周邊有事”的新條文,對兩岸軍事衝突予以介入,戰事擴大,中國大陸潛艇部隊就有可能襲擊日本本土來牽扯進入台灣海峽作戰的日本軍力。 2001年發表的中國大陸官方的關於兩岸事務的《白皮書》清楚表示﹕當台獨變成行動時,中國大陸將採取一切行動阻止。11月18日,新加坡《聯合早報》發表的中國社會科學院台灣研究所所長余克禮在最近的談話中指出﹕“中國大陸將勇於面對美日在兩岸問題上的軍事干涉”的公開表態,作為白皮書的主撰人,余的講話,自有其時機性和軍事後盾。 另一個很不尋常的真實事件是,根據2003年8月19日《今日美國》報導,今年秋天,由於日本海大陸架水文狀況中,水下音響狀況非常複雜,很難用聲納系統偵聽到隱蔽性能好的潛艇,美國海軍將在日本周邊海域試驗其搜索敵方潛艇的新技術,這項新技術是名為“LASH”偵潛系統。雖然這項報導只是指明﹕“部分試驗將針對包含北韓在內的東亞地區國家的柴油發動機潛艇”。但也不乏將試驗目的針對中國大陸海軍柴油發動機潛艇的可能性。根據同篇報導,美海軍的P-3C“獵戶座”反潛機及SH-60“海鷹”反潛直升機也將參與此次LASH偵潛系統的投入使用的重要試驗。根據報導,今年秋天的美日此項軍演時間與中國大陸海軍潛艇軍演時間正好重疊。 因此,可以研判,中國潛艇在日本公海完成潛航,並公開上浮,不是平常的軍事演習,而是對美日海軍的正在進行的這項演習的反偵察,並為了顯示其未被偵破的潛航,公開上浮,升起國旗,以示其在日本海的航行和運作,顯示反制及防範“美日武力干涉台灣事務”的軍事行動能力,也同時發出警告。中國大陸潛艇在重大時刻顯現絕非偶然,不是普通軍事戰術演習,具有反偵察的可能,也是帶有警告意味的戰略舉動。[作者為美國克萊蒙研究所亞洲研究中心主任湯本] |
Pinus 於 2004/09/26 13:31 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
中國進口潛艦的一些難題。兩艘877及兩艘636基洛都配有先進聲納、射控、雷 達及電子戰武器系統﹐但船殼、機械及電力系統還是問題多多。據說那兩艘877 在買了兩年之後﹐還是運行不善。據云每套可產生1500千瓦功率的柴油發電機 (Type 2D-42)老出毛病﹐而中國自己還沒法子修復﹐結果是拖回俄國Electrosila廠 修理。 由於進口了一堆老毛子的潛艦﹐中國把象山港建成基洛的基地﹐而附近的定海則是 1994年俄國人建議中國潛艦人員接收18個月的訓練﹐1995年中國批准了第一批877人 |
星塵 於 2004/09/26 16:04 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
哈薩克應該是個內陸國吧?? 有海軍可以賣魚雷嗎? 還是前蘇聯會在內陸山區制造魚雷? |
星塵 於 2004/09/26 16:16 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
Sorry about I made the mistake~~~ 哈薩克有靠?堮? 被中國駐哈薩克大使館網頁裡那句 哈薩克是世界最大內陸國 給誤導了 |
Pinus 於 2004/09/27 13:05 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
星塵兄﹐ 不怪你﹐因為一般印象中﹐哈薩克人是整天騎在馬背上生活的游牧民族﹐令人聯想 台灣人很少把目光投向中亞及西亞﹐然而(以在下的淺見)這裡是『帝國銜接處』﹐ |
問個問題 於 2004/09/27 17:00 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
暴風雪高速魚雷, 這不是直航魚雷嗎???? |
John 於 2004/09/27 20:02 | |
Re:美國國防部2004解放軍軍力報告--潛艦部份 | |
暴風雪高速魚雷, 這不是直航魚雷嗎???? >>>沒那麼簡單,它是種【超空泡化】(supercavitation) 魚雷 詳見貼: 72_1 |
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